Beyond the Bro-Science: Two Men Tackle Inner Turmoil, Bad Bosses, and Bedroom Battles with ‘The Work’

A “Personal Crisis” and the Power of Friendship

Kay and E kick off with vulnerability and a dose of self-reflection. E, currently in Indonesia, shares a recent “personal crisis” he faced with his new boss. Kay guided him through Byron Katie’s “The Work,” a powerful self-inquiry process. E realized he was reacting more to his *thoughts* about his boss’s email than the actual content. This pivotal insight, shifting from self-doubt to realizing his boss might actually be protecting him, underscored the vital role of male friendships and honest emotional dialogue—a space E feels is often missing for men today.

Redefining the Podcast: More Inner World, Less Outer Chaos

Inspired by this shared need, Kay and E discuss a new direction for their podcast. Moving beyond political discussions, they aim to delve deeper into philosophy and the unique challenges of being men in their 40s with families. Their goal: explore the “universe within” and foster sincere inquiry among men navigating modern life, rather than getting lost in external noise or superficial “manosphere” trends.

Unpacking “The Work”: From Marital Misconceptions to Workplace Wisdom

Kay elaborates on “The Work,” a deceptively simple yet profound method for questioning deeply held thoughts. He shares a hilariously relatable tale of years of marital conflict over initiating sex. Through the process, he had an “aha!” moment, realizing he was acting like a “spoiled brat” for demanding his wife initiate when he was the one who desired it. This immediate insight instantly dissolved years of argument. E’s workplace crisis similarly benefited, reframing his boss’s actions from personal criticism to professional protection, thereby changing the entire dynamic.

The Right Tool for the Job: Practicality Over Esoteric Deep Dives

The conversation broadens to various self-improvement tools, from Stoicism to Neuro-Linguistic Programming. Kay humorously notes he tackled his recent anger issues with his kids not through deep spiritual work, but a practical book focused on foundational self-care like sleep and stress management. The key takeaway: the solution isn’t always a complex psychological excavation, but discerning the right “tool” for life’s everyday challenges, proving that sometimes, the simplest approach is the most effective.

Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.370 –> 00:00:06.730 Kay: Let’s just… E, it’s… It’s a pleasure to see you again. 2 00:00:07.690 –> 00:00:08.500 Kay: Flesh. 3 00:00:09.000 –> 00:00:10.240 Kay: And, 4 00:00:11.030 –> 00:00:15.949 Kay: And I don’t know if you can see me, because it’s kind of dark where I’m at, but you can see the silhouette of me. 5 00:00:16.329 –> 00:00:18.150 Kay: as I… as I sit here. 6 00:00:19.140 –> 00:00:22.159 Kay: Late in the eve… late in the morning. 7 00:00:22.310 –> 00:00:23.450 Kay: In my bed. 8 00:00:24.000 –> 00:00:25.630 Kay: Just for anyone who’s interested. 9 00:00:25.890 –> 00:00:28.200 Kay: Good to see you, what do you… 10 00:00:29.770 –> 00:00:34.800 Kay: you were just describing to me, I’ll just kind of jump in, you were describing to me the oneness 11 00:00:35.010 –> 00:00:38.169 Kay: Of the universe. But before we get into that, what’s new with you? 12 00:00:39.430 –> 00:00:42.829 Kay: and… What’s he been up to? 13 00:00:44.540 –> 00:00:47.280 E: Yeah, so, I mean, working, like, crazy at this new job. 14 00:00:47.640 –> 00:00:49.809 E: You know, it’s a new job, it’s a new boss. 15 00:00:49.810 –> 00:00:53.290 Kay: And that’s something I want to talk about later, because I recently had… 16 00:00:53.350 –> 00:00:55.659 E: Like, a bit of a personal crisis. 17 00:00:57.040 –> 00:01:02.500 E: with my boss, and this happens… I think this happens all the time, I’ve talked to my friends, and I’ve heard about this a lot. 18 00:01:02.700 –> 00:01:10.949 E: And you, actually sat down with me, and you engaged in this sort of work that really brought it home for me. 19 00:01:11.420 –> 00:01:18.900 E: and helped me understand something that I think a lot of people can say, but without actually feeling, and that is that 20 00:01:19.090 –> 00:01:26.229 E: you know, I think this is also the base of a lot of philosophies, like the Stoic philosophy that’s very popular right now, which is, I found myself 21 00:01:26.440 –> 00:01:30.490 E: Reacting to my own thoughts about something that was going on at. 22 00:01:30.490 –> 00:01:31.180 Kay: Worming. 23 00:01:31.350 –> 00:01:33.609 E: And not necessarily what’s going on at work. 24 00:01:34.120 –> 00:01:36.029 E: And you really did help me… 25 00:01:36.310 –> 00:01:49.790 E: figured that out, and you led me through a process that got me there, which I think is really tough for a lot of people to do. I think it’s worth sharing, not, you know, not so people can actually go do this. I think it requires a little bit more… 26 00:01:50.280 –> 00:02:04.069 E: detail and thought than that, but just raising awareness that it is possible to do it, and I was in a pretty bad spot, and through careful exploration and learning and trusts, I think I was able 27 00:02:04.190 –> 00:02:13.370 E: to get out of a really bad spot, and you know, as we’ve talked about before, right, like, you know, we’re both married, we have a busy home life, I have a baby at home. 28 00:02:13.630 –> 00:02:17.050 E: I have a 7-year-old boy, and so… 29 00:02:17.750 –> 00:02:26.840 E: there’s already enough going on, and I think men specifically… men specifically just… we don’t… first of all, we don’t take time to talk about our feelings. 30 00:02:27.470 –> 00:02:32.250 E: I think a lot of men feel like that’s… not useful. 31 00:02:32.390 –> 00:02:37.919 E: Oh, you know, venting, I guess, maybe. But this is… this wasn’t venting. I vented! 32 00:02:37.920 –> 00:02:38.290 Kay: Right. 33 00:02:38.290 –> 00:02:43.379 E: Which is helpful, but it only gets you so far, because then you’re left alone with your thoughts. 34 00:02:43.660 –> 00:02:45.639 E: Sometimes when you make your thoughts. 35 00:02:46.390 –> 00:02:57.369 E: kind of leave your mind and you express them, sometimes you can hear that they’re not quite right, but I think it really takes an emotional maturity talking to other men. 36 00:02:57.650 –> 00:03:11.180 E: born in a similar situation. And so anyway, I think that’s… I mean, I honestly think that’s something that our podcast is about, which is what it’s like to be a man, of a certain age, in a certain situation. 37 00:03:11.180 –> 00:03:11.740 Kay: Yeah. 38 00:03:12.110 –> 00:03:14.739 E: You know, what does even young men 39 00:03:15.040 –> 00:03:18.079 E: Who might want a family and kids, but think 40 00:03:18.610 –> 00:03:20.949 E: That there’s no point to it nowadays. 41 00:03:21.550 –> 00:03:29.200 E: I think that’s who this podcast is for. I mean, that’s who it’s made by. It’s by men in, like, a very sincere inquiry. 42 00:03:29.700 –> 00:03:37.469 E: Wanting to make sense of the world. But anyway, what is the podcast about, Kay? If you want to give it a 43 00:03:40.330 –> 00:03:41.810 E: I’m timing it, by the way. 44 00:03:41.810 –> 00:03:43.459 Kay: It’s been so confusing. 45 00:03:43.610 –> 00:03:48.610 Kay: Of all the podcasts I’ve done, yet this is the most interesting podcast so far, so maybe that’s a good thing. 46 00:03:49.020 –> 00:03:52.929 Kay: I do think, you know, first of all, thanks. 47 00:03:53.330 –> 00:04:00.199 Kay: I’m grateful that was helpful for you, and thanks for bringing it up for me. We ended up doing that instead of the podcast last time for… 48 00:04:00.460 –> 00:04:03.610 Kay: Those are wondering why we haven’t recorded recently. 49 00:04:04.320 –> 00:04:07.149 Kay: And also, we’ve just been busy, I think it’s been, 50 00:04:07.370 –> 00:04:10.159 Kay: Bad timing in many ways, but 51 00:04:11.220 –> 00:04:18.279 Kay: Yeah, you know, I think that… we were talking last time about… I think we’ve been talking about politics a lot. 52 00:04:18.940 –> 00:04:21.480 E: in past recordings, and I think… 53 00:04:21.860 –> 00:04:25.889 Kay: I was thinking last time we spoke about, like, what should we do with this podcast. 54 00:04:26.290 –> 00:04:37.249 Kay: that are get… you know, like, the… the… we certainly both appreciate politics and the world affairs, and I don’t want to necessarily, like, get rid of all that, because we are… 55 00:04:37.630 –> 00:04:38.619 Kay: Interested in that. 56 00:04:38.930 –> 00:04:45.500 Kay: But also, we have another aspect of our, maybe our connection over the years, which has been kind of philosophy and… 57 00:04:45.760 –> 00:04:51.590 Kay: And also the fact that right now we’re living lives, as you said, that are… Similar… 58 00:04:52.180 –> 00:04:55.850 Kay: In their context of, what we’re going through and… 59 00:04:56.270 –> 00:04:57.580 Kay: And then there’s the whole issue of… 60 00:04:57.710 –> 00:04:59.590 Kay: You know, what does it mean to be… 61 00:05:00.190 –> 00:05:06.699 Kay: You know, a male in your… in your 40s with children, you know, marriage, all that stuff, and… and what… 62 00:05:06.800 –> 00:05:13.760 Kay: And so that was kind of what we started with, this podcast, and it would be interesting to kind of get back a little bit on that track. 63 00:05:13.880 –> 00:05:20.560 Kay: And explore that. And, because I think there are a lot of political podcasts, right? I mean, there’s… 64 00:05:21.020 –> 00:05:23.250 Kay: Tons of that stuff. But this is… 65 00:05:23.250 –> 00:05:27.590 E: And people who are more familiar with the actual mechanics of American politics than we are. 66 00:05:27.590 –> 00:05:34.499 Kay: Yeah, oh yeah, totally. So anyway, that sounds good to me. I like, kind of, the direction of going back to that, and… 67 00:05:35.490 –> 00:05:39.249 Kay: And why not? Cause there’s a lot of… 68 00:05:39.990 –> 00:05:43.240 Kay: There’s a lot going on on the outside, like you said. 69 00:05:43.550 –> 00:05:51.029 Kay: externally in our world, but there’s also a lot going on on the inside of us, of each one of us. It’s a whole, kind of, universe in itself. 70 00:05:51.670 –> 00:05:57.199 Kay: And it would be interesting to kind of explore that, anyway. And, 71 00:05:57.510 –> 00:06:00.200 Kay: Yeah, there’s a lot to kind of chew on there. 72 00:06:00.460 –> 00:06:02.580 Kay: So, cool, yeah, I like that. 73 00:06:02.680 –> 00:06:04.879 Kay: And you were talking about the oneness of… 74 00:06:04.990 –> 00:06:07.550 Kay: at all. I didn’t want to cut you off. Do you still. 75 00:06:07.550 –> 00:06:08.099 E: No, no, of course. 76 00:06:08.100 –> 00:06:08.899 Kay: Anything in there you like? 77 00:06:08.900 –> 00:06:15.340 E: Yeah, you know, so I think, you know, just to kind of segue, You know, to me. 78 00:06:16.020 –> 00:06:31.409 E: I just… I found myself in a spot where just my home life required so much attention and time, because I met my wife in Latin America, and then we have our 7-year-old, and then we had a baby, and then we moved. 79 00:06:31.570 –> 00:06:35.179 E: to the US, and then we moved to Indonesia, where I am right now. 80 00:06:35.720 –> 00:06:37.000 E: And… 81 00:06:37.000 –> 00:06:37.770 Kay: They’re busy. 82 00:06:38.230 –> 00:06:45.190 E: I… when I was single, I had friends, and I still do have friends, you’re my friend. 83 00:06:45.290 –> 00:06:47.090 E: But I stopped hanging out with my friends. 84 00:06:47.090 –> 00:06:47.690 Kay: Yeah. 85 00:06:48.170 –> 00:06:57.149 E: Right? And I’ve moved around my entire life, so I’m used to having friends that I just kind of connect with on email messages, maybe a phone call every now and then. 86 00:06:57.280 –> 00:07:05.909 E: And they’re good friends. I’m the kind of person that has a small amount of just good friends. I don’t like having a ton of friends, because it feels like work to me. 87 00:07:05.910 –> 00:07:06.460 Kay: True. 88 00:07:06.910 –> 00:07:12.709 E: But then I just realized, you know what, actually, I haven’t really connected to friends, and I do miss… 89 00:07:13.260 –> 00:07:17.490 E: There is something to be said for men talking to each other. 90 00:07:17.670 –> 00:07:21.839 E: Right. I think that’s a really important part of the life I want. 91 00:07:22.180 –> 00:07:30.490 E: If it’s not for everyone, I mean, that’s fine. But for me, the idea is there are men out there who are in the exact same position as us. 92 00:07:30.900 –> 00:07:40.539 E: And you actually socialize much more than I do. You’re… you have, like, a small town kind of atmosphere, which lends itself really great to knowing your neighbors and socializing. 93 00:07:40.780 –> 00:07:43.290 E: I’m a little jealous, but… 94 00:07:44.080 –> 00:07:47.090 Kay: It wasn’t because I tried, it just happened to happen, you know. 95 00:07:47.590 –> 00:07:51.939 E: I’m saying, well, you put yourself in the position for that to happen. And so, for me. 96 00:07:52.280 –> 00:07:56.090 E: The idea is there must be other men out there who 97 00:07:57.540 –> 00:08:03.170 E: to me, it’s… we are exploring themes, some themes we’re familiar with, right? For example. 98 00:08:03.440 –> 00:08:18.679 E: doing, kind of, psychological, spiritual work. We’ve dabbled. You, I think, have dabbled in quite a few things. You’re not an expert, but you’re… man, you’re good enough to get me to a better place. And maybe you are for some of our followers, or at least point them in the right direction. 99 00:08:18.680 –> 00:08:29.930 E: I have tried so many different things for psychology and spirituality that I think it’s a useful conversation that other people can listen to to get pointed in the right direction. 100 00:08:30.090 –> 00:08:36.929 E: When it comes to politics, you know? Like, you and I… you and I do not have politics that are easily defined 101 00:08:37.110 –> 00:08:39.999 E: True. With the current polarization. 102 00:08:40.400 –> 00:08:43.820 E: I’m not a MAGA guy, I’m not a woke guy, and neither are you. 103 00:08:43.909 –> 00:08:45.840 Kay: And I think… 104 00:08:45.840 –> 00:09:00.720 E: And I think this is another thing about men in this era. What does it mean to be a man? You know, what does it mean to be a good man? What does it mean to be a good father to two children? What does it mean to be a father to a boy? What does it mean to be a father. 105 00:09:00.720 –> 00:09:01.970 Kay: Go to a girl. Yeah. 106 00:09:01.970 –> 00:09:08.179 E: What does it mean to be a good husband? These are all things that, like, even just a question can be triggering to some people. 107 00:09:08.520 –> 00:09:08.970 Kay: Right. 108 00:09:08.970 –> 00:09:11.869 E: If you say, what does it mean to be a man. 109 00:09:12.060 –> 00:09:20.599 E: Some far-left, hyper-progressive, sensitive people might take that as, oh, this is gonna be one of those, like, what is a woman kind of things, where… 110 00:09:20.710 –> 00:09:27.300 E: You’re trying to sell me on some sort of toxic masculinity, Andrew Tate style? Because Andrew Tate has an answer for that question, right? 111 00:09:27.970 –> 00:09:28.990 E: And so… 112 00:09:28.990 –> 00:09:29.480 Kay: answers. 113 00:09:29.480 –> 00:09:32.909 E: And he has answers. 114 00:09:33.340 –> 00:09:45.219 E: And so… but, like, I don’t know, in the so-called manosphere, where are the conversations being had by normal men who can actually sympathize, empathize with most men out there? 115 00:09:45.370 –> 00:09:49.049 E: there’s stuff like the All In podcast, which these, like. 116 00:09:49.180 –> 00:10:00.039 E: rich, techy guys who are into politics, and they have a very set political agenda that has morphed into, you know, survival and abundance mode. I get it. 117 00:10:00.040 –> 00:10:00.500 Kay: Right. 118 00:10:00.500 –> 00:10:07.610 E: You know? And… And I think, you know, Jocko Walnick, David Goggins. 119 00:10:07.730 –> 00:10:10.180 E: Those are… those are guys to hear, some great. 120 00:10:10.180 –> 00:10:10.670 Kay: messages from. 121 00:10:10.670 –> 00:10:29.999 E: But, like, ex-Navy SEALs, you know, that part of the manosphere, which I actually really like that. I listen to the Sean Ryan podcast, and Joko Walinic, and David Goggins. But that’s not who I am. I’m not those people. I love hearing their encouraging words, and then talking to people that they have access to is fascinating. 122 00:10:30.210 –> 00:10:35.029 E: But not everything they say, you know, makes me… doesn’t really apply to me. 123 00:10:35.330 –> 00:10:45.379 E: Even to tell people that you listened to those podcasts, that they knew what those podcasts were, would invite judgment, which is really sad to me, because we contain multitudes. We all do. 124 00:10:45.560 –> 00:10:49.229 E: And where can a person go to have a conversation? 125 00:10:49.340 –> 00:11:03.909 E: that is based from a… I’m not trying to convince you that the answer is MAGA. I’m not trying to convince you the answer is social populism. I’m not trying to convince you that the answer is all women are men’s property. 126 00:11:04.210 –> 00:11:16.730 E: I’m… I’m here to have a conversation that other people can be a part of. Maybe if we actually do get people to listen in big enough numbers, we can even invite people who listen onto the show. Like, literally be a part of the conversation. 127 00:11:16.730 –> 00:11:17.340 Kay: That’d be amazing. 128 00:11:17.340 –> 00:11:23.110 E: I’d like that. Anyway, so, I mean, that’s… I think that’s part of our… our value. 129 00:11:23.110 –> 00:11:26.549 Kay: to the dialogue is, we’re normal guys. 130 00:11:26.670 –> 00:11:34.140 E: In this situation, family, husband, neither political polarization end really defines who we are. 131 00:11:34.340 –> 00:11:41.219 E: None of these ideological movements define who we are, and we want to have a conversation about how can a man like us 132 00:11:41.900 –> 00:11:50.770 E: move forward in the world, have conversations with other men, and even if you don’t agree with the result they’ve gotten to, the logical end that they’ve reached. 133 00:11:51.430 –> 00:11:54.920 E: You can respect it, and by talking to each other. 134 00:11:55.330 –> 00:12:08.330 E: you can change your mind, which is a lost art. You know, I think the powers that be are not eager to convince you that changing your mind is healthy, or good, or respectful, because there’s a lot of people out there who 135 00:12:08.530 –> 00:12:11.740 E: benefit from you not changing your mind, anyway. Yeah. 136 00:12:11.740 –> 00:12:12.129 Kay: Well said. 137 00:12:12.130 –> 00:12:19.490 E: So I think that’s the podcast, and I think this idea of oneness that you helped me connect to is part of it, because I was having a tough time at work. 138 00:12:19.930 –> 00:12:32.160 E: And my default is to… I will share it with my wife, because I like sharing things with my wife. She knows me very well, and she gives me insight and comfort, in equal measures. 139 00:12:32.560 –> 00:12:36.879 E: And she helps ground me, because at the end of the day, I come home to my family, and that’s what matters to me. 140 00:12:37.410 –> 00:12:47.659 E: But at the same time, it’s nice to talk to a man who has the same experiences as me, who also knows me for quite some time. I think, actually, he might be one of the people who’s known me the longest. It’s like, 20-something years. 141 00:12:47.660 –> 00:12:51.410 Kay: Yeah, I was just thinking about that. It was… it’s been a while. 142 00:12:51.410 –> 00:12:57.489 E: Yeah, our friendship is old enough to rent a car. Well… So… so, I… 143 00:12:57.490 –> 00:12:58.799 Kay: I’ve got this red column to you. 144 00:12:58.800 –> 00:13:00.370 E: You are, by the way, that was a… that’s… 145 00:13:01.610 –> 00:13:11.229 E: I brought this work problem to you, which is a very typical man thing, right? And you didn’t put me through the, like, oh, don’t be sad, oh, okay, I didn’t think about that. 146 00:13:11.370 –> 00:13:18.009 Kay: I will not be sad now. Thank you for that excellent advice. You actually took me through a process which I would love to share with people. 147 00:13:18.170 –> 00:13:31.239 E: But the end result was, I realized, because, you know, I told you a few days later that I talked to my boss after we talked, and it was insightful, and it worked, and a lot of the things that you had said would happen, happened. 148 00:13:31.360 –> 00:13:38.470 E: And then you told me something surprising to me, which was, actually, that inspires me. Like, it makes me re-evaluate some of my own beliefs. 149 00:13:38.960 –> 00:13:48.099 E: And, you know, it’s kind of like this fractal geometry, because when you said that, it made me think, oh wow, I thought Kay was his guy. I’m sorry, Kay, fuck. Dewey Herman. 150 00:13:48.670 –> 00:13:53.560 Kay: I thought Kay was this… I thought you were this kind of guy. 151 00:13:53.560 –> 00:14:04.109 E: who was just so certain of these kinds of things. And for… to hear you express doubt and then motivation from what happened to me made me feel really good. It made me feel like, oh wow, it wasn’t a one-way street. 152 00:14:04.610 –> 00:14:04.990 Kay: No. 153 00:14:04.990 –> 00:14:16.519 E: out of helping me, which makes me feel… like, I think like a lot of people, I don’t like asking for help, because then I feel like, I don’t know, indebtedness. I feel like I’m taking something away from you that I now owe you. It’s weird. 154 00:14:16.750 –> 00:14:20.790 E: But this shows me that when you helped me, it helped you. 155 00:14:21.390 –> 00:14:26.970 E: When I asked for help, it also gave you the opportunity to offer something you really wanted. 156 00:14:27.430 –> 00:14:33.860 Kay: And to hear you say you had a similar situation, and that you got something out of hearing my end result. 157 00:14:34.250 –> 00:14:38.859 E: reminded me of something that you hear a lot, because I think we’ve… you and I have both 158 00:14:39.190 –> 00:14:43.240 E: having lived in California, walked through some pretty spiritual 159 00:14:43.950 –> 00:14:45.639 E: Buddhist circles, where people give a lot of. 160 00:14:45.640 –> 00:14:46.130 Kay: from ellipse. 161 00:14:46.130 –> 00:14:54.040 E: service to a lot of the… a lot of the suppositions of Eastern philosophy about 162 00:14:54.720 –> 00:15:00.399 E: the universe being all one thing, this non-dual world, where… 163 00:15:00.910 –> 00:15:13.240 E: really, you’re connected to all other people on Earth and all other things. It’s one reality living out a thousand different identities. And it’s really easy to repeat those words and make it sound like you’re enlightened. 164 00:15:13.870 –> 00:15:14.620 Kay: Yes. 165 00:15:14.940 –> 00:15:18.959 E: But… It’s rare to experience that. 166 00:15:19.200 –> 00:15:24.489 E: And when I say experience it, I mean, like, there’s a moment where it’s ineffable. You don’t… 167 00:15:24.900 –> 00:15:30.949 E: you don’t have to say it, you just feel it. It’s real. And I felt that when you helped me and you told me that 168 00:15:31.180 –> 00:15:33.410 E: Hearing about my journey helped you. 169 00:15:33.800 –> 00:15:42.869 E: It reminded me, we are all just one… we’re all one life species, I mean, we’re all connected, and that… that’s not to mean it’s peaceful. 170 00:15:43.340 –> 00:15:47.820 Kay: Because inside of me, I have a war going on. Inside of me, there’s conflict. 171 00:15:47.870 –> 00:15:51.300 E: So just because we’re all the same, life… 172 00:15:51.880 –> 00:16:06.479 E: force on this planet, does it mean that, oh, it’s all peace and love now? No, of course not. I, supposedly, am one life form. I am one person with a name and a credit card and a social security number, but in my own head. 173 00:16:06.480 –> 00:16:15.040 E: There’s a lot of conflict, and doubt, and hatred, dare I say, and love. It’s everything, but that same thing that’s in me 174 00:16:15.230 –> 00:16:25.419 E: is all over the Earth amongst humans. It’s like humans are like one colony of life bound together into one thing. 175 00:16:25.630 –> 00:16:29.120 E: like a Portuguese man of war. Have you ever seen those things? 176 00:16:29.470 –> 00:16:32.609 E: They look like jellyfish, but they’re actually several different… 177 00:16:32.610 –> 00:16:32.990 Kay: in. 178 00:16:32.990 –> 00:16:41.360 E: lot, organisms put together into one being that floats. The tentacles are each one different animal. 179 00:16:41.740 –> 00:16:48.440 E: And the thing they’re attached to. I’m not a Portuguese man-of-war expert, so if that’s why you’ve come here, you’re gonna be a little disappointed. 180 00:16:48.440 –> 00:16:49.689 Kay: Another marine biologist. 181 00:16:50.110 –> 00:17:01.399 E: Yeah, or like that tree from Avatar, or like those trees in the Amazon that are all connected through a root system. Right. You know, just like you could lose a finger and still survive, humanity can lose, what, a few… 182 00:17:01.400 –> 00:17:02.020 Kay: True. 183 00:17:02.170 –> 00:17:05.949 E: thousand million people a year and still go on, right? So… 184 00:17:06.819 –> 00:17:12.469 E: I think this lends credence. This is, like, one of the rare times I’ve actually experienced, but yeah. 185 00:17:12.650 –> 00:17:13.460 E: like… 186 00:17:13.460 –> 00:17:18.380 Kay: The things that happened to me also happen to you. Yeah. We’re all… we’re all being… we’re all connected. 187 00:17:18.920 –> 00:17:27.239 E: It doesn’t mean there’s peace on Earth. It means that we’re just one thing. And to me, that’s an amazing feeling. It feels like zooming out. 188 00:17:27.270 –> 00:17:29.829 Kay: Yeah. And seeing the world… 189 00:17:30.190 –> 00:17:36.569 E: And to me, that connects to a lot of, I think, a lot of values and moral issues, speaking of our podcast. 190 00:17:36.780 –> 00:17:39.280 E: So, for example, when I think of… 191 00:17:39.670 –> 00:17:53.180 E: you know, the topic of men’s rights, right? You hear a lot of men’s rights activists talk about, well, what about men? Men are suffering too. And then a lot of women hear that, and they think, oh, okay, you’re gonna completely invalidate women’s rights by doing that. 192 00:17:53.290 –> 00:18:05.650 E: And the answer is no. You can talk about men suffering and women suffering at the same time, because if men aren’t doing well, women aren’t doing well, and vice versa, because it’s all just one thing. 193 00:18:05.920 –> 00:18:14.549 E: You cannot have the human race without, these genders. If it’s true that there’s only two genders, who knows? Let’s not even touch that one. 194 00:18:14.620 –> 00:18:15.320 Kay: Right. 195 00:18:15.320 –> 00:18:19.430 E: But anyway, that was my spiel about… like. 196 00:18:19.630 –> 00:18:25.169 E: Your help, and what it did for me, and how it connected me to this 197 00:18:25.420 –> 00:18:29.340 E: what I thought was an esoteric spiritual idea, but I actually felt it. 198 00:18:30.040 –> 00:18:33.479 E: When we had that session. And it’s fleeting, right? It’s hard to connect to. 199 00:18:33.900 –> 00:18:41.319 E: But it… I thought it was great. I mean, what’s your take on it? I mean, I’d like to… I’d like to get your thoughts, but also talk a little bit about… 200 00:18:41.320 –> 00:18:41.960 Kay: Yeah. 201 00:18:41.960 –> 00:18:43.549 E: What you, what you helped me do. 202 00:18:44.030 –> 00:18:50.920 E: it was, to me, something that I wish more people had access to. I mean, including men, because I think it’s harder for men 203 00:18:51.350 –> 00:18:53.860 E: To be honest about how they’re feeling in 204 00:18:54.950 –> 00:18:57.480 E: I mean, I hadn’t done it for. 205 00:18:58.270 –> 00:19:02.789 Kay: I hadn’t done that, so it was called The Work by Byron Katie, and maybe some folks have already… 206 00:19:03.250 –> 00:19:05.480 Kay: Encountered it, or heard about it. 207 00:19:05.900 –> 00:19:08.909 Kay: Tim Ferriss has talked about it a few times on his podcast. 208 00:19:09.480 –> 00:19:11.819 Kay: And other such people of that level. 209 00:19:11.980 –> 00:19:16.199 Kay: Anyway, I used to go to her, 210 00:19:16.730 –> 00:19:21.910 Kay: Live workshops a number of times. And, would watch her do this, and 211 00:19:22.500 –> 00:19:26.259 Kay: I started getting into her maybe 2007 or 8, Byron Kitty. 212 00:19:27.190 –> 00:19:32.329 Kay: And I just liked how… I guess I always liked how clean her teaching was. There was no… 213 00:19:32.610 –> 00:19:34.720 Kay: Mythology, there was no religion. 214 00:19:35.430 –> 00:19:39.370 Kay: Nothing, it’s just pure questioning, so you just question your thoughts, really. 215 00:19:39.840 –> 00:19:42.550 Kay: And, and yet… 216 00:19:42.550 –> 00:19:48.870 E: She’s not intense, either. She’s very… very gentle, grounded, there’s no showmanship, which… 217 00:19:49.350 –> 00:19:53.030 E: is very… to me, was… it’s… it helps you get centered, I feel. 218 00:19:53.530 –> 00:19:57.840 Kay: Yeah, and she’s quite trippy, I mean, if you… If you enjoy… 219 00:19:58.020 –> 00:20:00.720 Kay: Some of the insights, and like… 220 00:20:00.910 –> 00:20:04.040 Kay: That you might, you know, there’s a book out by her called, 221 00:20:04.500 –> 00:20:08.680 Kay: A Thousand Names for Joy, which I always enjoy. It’s a fun book to read, because… 222 00:20:09.360 –> 00:20:15.250 Kay: Like, the first part of it… Starts with, like… Her mother’s dying. 223 00:20:16.310 –> 00:20:25.270 Kay: Which is kind of a heavy subject, but, it’s the most beautiful… description of… 224 00:20:25.880 –> 00:20:28.290 Kay: someone dying. It’s just, like, this… 225 00:20:29.470 –> 00:20:38.130 Kay: it’s like a poetry of just, like, I’m helping my mother, she can’t move, all this stuff, and it’s just immensely beautiful. And, 226 00:20:38.350 –> 00:20:40.839 Kay: There’s a lot of those kind of things in there that are just… 227 00:20:42.050 –> 00:20:46.350 Kay: weird, just… different way of looking at the world. Anyway, I, 228 00:20:46.460 –> 00:20:52.420 Kay: But I hadn’t done it. I will do it usually sometimes when I’m having, like, a crisis of my own with my family. 229 00:20:52.580 –> 00:20:53.989 Kay: family, or… 230 00:20:54.170 –> 00:20:58.820 Kay: business or something like that, and I’ll just kind of do it by myself, but I hadn’t done it, 231 00:20:59.630 –> 00:21:02.560 Kay: You know, with anyone for years, and 232 00:21:03.220 –> 00:21:06.989 Kay: it was helpful for me, because really what happens is I don’t… 233 00:21:08.240 –> 00:21:10.749 Kay: I’m not giving you my advice. 234 00:21:11.370 –> 00:21:14.120 Kay: as a… I’m just kind of walking you through this. 235 00:21:16.370 –> 00:21:20.630 Kay: process, and you’re basically… the idea is, like, you’re coming up with the… 236 00:21:21.800 –> 00:21:26.100 Kay: with the responses and with the answers through that process. And in a way. 237 00:21:27.170 –> 00:21:31.830 Kay: It’s like, you know the answers before you start, you just… find them. 238 00:21:32.150 –> 00:21:33.750 Kay: I don’t know if that makes sense, but… 239 00:21:35.160 –> 00:21:35.620 E: Yeah. 240 00:21:35.620 –> 00:21:40.959 Kay: Like, you already knew the answer before you began the process, you just didn’t want to look at it, but it was there. 241 00:21:41.570 –> 00:21:42.300 Kay: We lied on. 242 00:21:42.300 –> 00:21:50.290 E: No, it’s like, it would be like, I mean, this is why Buddhist koans, those Buddhist riddles, where apparently by solving the riddle. 243 00:21:50.600 –> 00:21:54.610 E: You can give the answer. The answer is just words. 244 00:21:54.830 –> 00:21:55.430 Kay: But it… 245 00:21:55.660 –> 00:21:58.730 E: It’s the process of coming up with the answer. 246 00:21:58.920 –> 00:22:09.810 E: that you feel something, you experience something, because you just… we all know what the end result is designed to do. The end result is, hey, you feel better now. 247 00:22:09.920 –> 00:22:21.010 E: If it was enough just to say, hey, you feel better now because you realize this is all made up, and then I say, oh wow, I feel better now, because this is all made up, I can even say those words. 248 00:22:21.010 –> 00:22:21.450 Kay: Yeah. 249 00:22:21.450 –> 00:22:27.449 E: But if you don’t feel them and experience it, it’s pointless. Yeah. The process you took me through, in the work. 250 00:22:27.450 –> 00:22:27.900 Kay: Yeah. 251 00:22:27.900 –> 00:22:40.149 E: which is kind of… which is Byron… Kay Byron’s thing, but you… I think it’s a daily tool that you just use so well. And I… I even know about the tool, I have read about it, I have attended. 252 00:22:40.150 –> 00:22:40.620 Kay: attempted to. 253 00:22:40.620 –> 00:22:45.460 E: do it. And it’s just one of those things where sometimes you just need someone. 254 00:22:45.460 –> 00:22:45.920 Kay: Yeah. 255 00:22:45.920 –> 00:22:49.770 E: Who knows you, and knows when you’re lying to a. 256 00:22:49.770 –> 00:22:50.120 Kay: Fuck you. 257 00:22:50.120 –> 00:22:52.950 E: through it. So, but you’re right, it’s the process, it’s not the end, really. 258 00:22:52.950 –> 00:22:54.140 Kay: Yeah, and I… 259 00:22:54.140 –> 00:23:00.059 E: And that’s why doing it to yourself might be kind of hard. I wish I was good at it enough to help you. 260 00:23:00.280 –> 00:23:04.209 E: do it, but you’re… I mean, I think you have a really great working… 261 00:23:04.630 –> 00:23:11.150 Kay: I’ve done it a lot, and I do it… I have done it with myself a lot, actually, and I think that maybe that’s helped me… 262 00:23:12.070 –> 00:23:25.819 Kay: get good at it, but I’ve also just gone to her things enough times, or listened to her enough times, where I… it’s like I started, kind of, maybe I’ve groked that part of it, but I… it doesn’t mean that just because I’ve done that a lot, it means that I’m… 263 00:23:26.840 –> 00:23:32.400 Kay: thinking this way all the time, which is… which is interesting. I’m not. I’m… I’m actually as mesmerized 264 00:23:33.320 –> 00:23:43.100 Kay: Until I do the work. You know, and that’s the only way I’ve found myself to wake up from some of this stuff is, oh, shoot. And one of the examples, I think… I don’t know if I gave this example to you… 265 00:23:43.540 –> 00:23:46.269 Kay: But it might as well, because it’s… we’re talking about men, and… 266 00:23:46.650 –> 00:23:50.929 Kay: And all this stuff, and so stop me if I have told this story, but… 267 00:23:51.240 –> 00:23:53.899 Kay: One of the biggest things that I had 268 00:23:54.960 –> 00:23:59.300 Kay: Maybe the past 5 or 6 years was… 269 00:23:59.420 –> 00:24:04.570 Kay: I… would get into these fights with my wife about sex. 270 00:24:04.810 –> 00:24:05.900 Kay: And, 271 00:24:07.190 –> 00:24:13.580 Kay: I was always… and I was usually the one… no, I was always the one instigating these fights. 272 00:24:13.880 –> 00:24:15.620 Kay: And I would have the thought. 273 00:24:16.490 –> 00:24:21.309 Kay: you know, she should initiate sex with me. I like… 274 00:24:21.560 –> 00:24:27.360 E: I like that. It’s… when she has, it’s incredible as a man, you know, it’s a wonderful thing. 275 00:24:27.940 –> 00:24:29.230 Kay: And. 276 00:24:29.230 –> 00:24:30.550 E: V-Ride onto it. 277 00:24:30.550 –> 00:24:38.619 Kay: Yeah, exactly. It’s the best feeling. And so I had somehow come to the conclusion, because I liked that. 278 00:24:38.790 –> 00:24:43.039 Kay: that it should go both ways. And you hear these things kind of, like, in… 279 00:24:43.370 –> 00:24:49.339 Kay: general psychology, like, it should be a two-way street. You know these phrases, it should be a two-way street. 280 00:24:49.510 –> 00:24:52.119 Kay: And then you say, that’s true, that must be truth. 281 00:24:52.920 –> 00:25:01.519 Kay: And you start to develop a judgment about that, and you’re like, oh, okay, well that… this is not fair. So I had worked myself up into this idea that 282 00:25:02.040 –> 00:25:09.350 Kay: This wasn’t fair, that I, you know, I should not be the only one initiating, it’s not fair, it should go both ways. 283 00:25:10.280 –> 00:25:16.140 Kay: For years, I had been… this is… gosh, it must have been going on almost 10 years in our relationship. 284 00:25:16.420 –> 00:25:17.370 Kay: Or more. 285 00:25:18.370 –> 00:25:24.130 Kay: And we would have these big fights, and then, you know, she would say something like, well, you know, I’ll try… I’ll try harder. 286 00:25:24.580 –> 00:25:27.000 Kay: And then, of course, I’d be disappointed that 287 00:25:27.320 –> 00:25:34.019 Kay: no change was happening. And anyway, I was… I remember one night, I was, 288 00:25:34.360 –> 00:25:36.939 Kay: Seething after maybe one of these fights. 289 00:25:37.580 –> 00:25:40.769 Kay: And she was like, well, I’m gonna go to bed, I, you know, I don’t know what to say. 290 00:25:40.940 –> 00:25:41.910 Kay: Anyway… 291 00:25:42.040 –> 00:25:47.220 Kay: I’m sitting there alone, and I’m like, okay, well, this is a time maybe I should do the work on this. 292 00:25:47.340 –> 00:25:49.159 Kay: And I started to do the work, and I… 293 00:25:50.470 –> 00:25:53.259 Kay: I think, well, okay, she should initiate. 294 00:25:55.410 –> 00:26:03.770 Kay: you know, I get to this point where I realize, I turn it around, I’m like, wait, I should initiate, when it’s like, well, yeah, I… I do initiate, though. I’m the only one. 295 00:26:04.910 –> 00:26:10.610 Kay: And then as I thought about it, I was like, wait, I… I’m the… I’m the one who wants… 296 00:26:10.850 –> 00:26:12.850 Kay: this. I’m the one who wants the sex. 297 00:26:13.210 –> 00:26:14.830 Kay: She’s fine either way. 298 00:26:17.230 –> 00:26:22.299 Kay: So if I’m the one who wants it, who should be the one initiating it? Well, I guess it should be me. 299 00:26:22.990 –> 00:26:27.140 Kay: And it was just such a… it seems so obvious when I say it now, but it was just such a… 300 00:26:27.250 –> 00:26:30.689 Kay: thing I had never put the two together, it’s like, oh, wait, I’m… 301 00:26:31.370 –> 00:26:35.529 Kay: If it’s what I want, why am I asking her to do this? 302 00:26:37.190 –> 00:26:39.029 Kay: Then I went further and realized. 303 00:26:39.200 –> 00:26:49.140 Kay: you know, she’s… here I am with a… with a woman… who… has been… Always open. 304 00:26:49.670 –> 00:26:53.500 Kay: you know, whenever I initiate, most of the time. 305 00:26:54.060 –> 00:26:58.479 Kay: She’s very open to that, she’s fine with it. And here I am bitching. 306 00:26:59.120 –> 00:27:02.040 Kay: And complaining like it’s not… that’s not enough. 307 00:27:02.640 –> 00:27:04.370 Kay: when I know that there are… 308 00:27:04.750 –> 00:27:10.819 Kay: Relationships in which a man will initiate and a woman will say no. I know that’s even fairly common. Yeah. 309 00:27:11.390 –> 00:27:14.140 Kay: And here I am with a woman who will say yes. 310 00:27:14.750 –> 00:27:18.559 Kay: And I’m a bitch about it. I’m being a spoiled brat. 311 00:27:19.130 –> 00:27:25.659 Kay: And I’m demanding that she does more. It’s not enough, it’s not good enough. It’s the whole life, it’s never good enough kind of thing. 312 00:27:26.400 –> 00:27:31.690 Kay: And it was a real, like, slap on the face, and a real awakening that, 313 00:27:32.090 –> 00:27:36.549 Kay: Once I saw it clearly, Which I had to see it. 314 00:27:37.080 –> 00:27:43.449 Kay: I couldn’t talk myself into it, I had to just see it, you know? It’s like I had to get through… I think the value of that process is… 315 00:27:43.660 –> 00:27:47.979 Kay: It forces you to see the truth instead of you telling… talking yourself into the truth. 316 00:27:49.160 –> 00:27:57.060 Kay: And again, once I saw it, I just dropped it, and I have to say, like, I’ve… it’s been, like, 4 or 5 years now, and we’ve never had another fight about that. 317 00:27:57.700 –> 00:28:02.759 Kay: Because I just… it just… I could not bring myself to… 318 00:28:03.340 –> 00:28:15.369 Kay: to have an argument about something where I didn’t believe in it anymore. I was like, well, I don’t believe that she should be initiating, so why would I argue about that now? So that’s, you know, just one simple example, but I think there’s been many times where I’ve done that. 319 00:28:15.660 –> 00:28:17.300 Kay: you know, my daughter, I was… 320 00:28:17.570 –> 00:28:22.400 Kay: I’m kind of working on this where she’ll do something that I don’t like, a behavior. 321 00:28:23.780 –> 00:28:28.139 Kay: And then I’ll get into an argument, maybe we’ll have an argument, or we’ll have some tension about that. 322 00:28:28.420 –> 00:28:30.939 Kay: I felt guilty if a day or so later. 323 00:28:31.920 –> 00:28:40.780 Kay: And then I’ll do the work on that, and I’ll be like, okay, she shouldn’t have whatever to me. She shouldn’t said this to me, or talked back to me, or whatever, and then it’s like, I go through the work. 324 00:28:41.410 –> 00:28:45.939 Kay: And I’m like, wait, she should have done that. And I go, well, okay, why should she have talked back to me? 325 00:28:46.200 –> 00:28:54.700 Kay: And then I can see all these amazing things that were valuable about what she said. Like, maybe it’s building her character, maybe I needed to hear that, because I was being a jerk. 326 00:28:55.660 –> 00:29:02.099 Kay: And it’s this very, like, oh, it’s… oh, I get it, yeah, I see why she should have done it. So it’s… but I do find that… 327 00:29:02.950 –> 00:29:07.769 Kay: It is something you just have to keep doing over and over again if you really want to, 328 00:29:07.990 –> 00:29:13.640 Kay: to shift it, and if you don’t, which I… there’s times where I just don’t do it at all for months, or… 329 00:29:13.780 –> 00:29:14.660 Kay: Or so. 330 00:29:14.770 –> 00:29:17.769 Kay: And, and I don’t, you know, it doesn’t help, so… 331 00:29:18.720 –> 00:29:21.389 Kay: So it is very much like, you know, you get what you put in. 332 00:29:22.040 –> 00:29:25.749 Kay: Kind of thing. But yeah, I’m glad, I’m grateful you liked it. 333 00:29:26.730 –> 00:29:32.200 E: And so, to me, just a couple things that kind of… Made me think when… 334 00:29:32.840 –> 00:29:36.969 E: Yeah, you know what the… right? So, like, you go into a process, for example. 335 00:29:37.790 –> 00:29:42.120 E: I’m, you know, some… I’ll talk about my thing vaguely, a little, which is… 336 00:29:42.300 –> 00:29:48.099 E: you know, I’m at work, and basically, something happened at work that made me look bad. 337 00:29:48.420 –> 00:29:52.559 E: This is my, you know, this is my version of events when it happened. 338 00:29:53.600 –> 00:29:59.619 E: something at work happened where, you know, this other external team that I work with on something. 339 00:29:59.960 –> 00:30:05.460 E: I had a bad experience with that external team. The head of that external team wrote to my boss. 340 00:30:06.370 –> 00:30:12.900 E: with a series of very scathing things about me that I… was not my experience of what happened. 341 00:30:13.080 –> 00:30:17.029 E: But it goes directly to my boss, who I’m already having, kind of, issues with. 342 00:30:17.710 –> 00:30:22.740 E: I think that my boss doesn’t value my work or think I’m any good. 343 00:30:22.940 –> 00:30:30.880 E: I often question whether or not I belong doing the job I do, whether I’m worthy of it or not, because my background isn’t… 344 00:30:31.190 –> 00:30:33.480 E: a traditional background for the work I do. 345 00:30:33.890 –> 00:30:35.120 E: And so… 346 00:30:35.890 –> 00:30:51.029 E: after this incident, and there’s an email that came out, and my boss immediately responded without talking to me first, and I just felt like, wow, my boss thinks I’m trash. Wow, I don’t belong here. I can’t believe she wouldn’t even talk to me first before responding to this set of 347 00:30:51.280 –> 00:31:04.030 E: outlandish, spurious allegations, and then I just felt terrible. And I also felt like, wow, did I really do all the things this person is accusing me of? Am I terrible? And now she’s exposing my boss to this. 348 00:31:04.380 –> 00:31:14.370 E: you know, surely I will lose my job, and I’m terrible, and my boss thinks I’m crazy and terrible, and she will… this will only confirm it, and… 349 00:31:14.640 –> 00:31:16.810 E: Oh man, I’m just the worst thing ever. 350 00:31:17.480 –> 00:31:23.289 E: And it’s funny, because that really stressed me out, and I know the answer is, okay, E. 351 00:31:23.720 –> 00:31:32.009 E: Because there’s two things, right? One is, I’m experiencing stress and anger and anxiety, and this was over a weekend, because that email came out over a Friday. 352 00:31:32.420 –> 00:31:36.569 E: I’m ex… breast… I’m experiencing stress and anxiety. 353 00:31:36.840 –> 00:31:41.239 E: and anger, all these things, I feel inadequate. 354 00:31:41.460 –> 00:31:49.729 E: sometimes when I feel inadequate, I don’t feel like sharing things with my wife, because I want her to think I’m amazing, but then I remember that one of the things 355 00:31:50.090 –> 00:32:03.999 E: that makes me amazing is that I can share these things. I’m not afraid to. And she’s the kind of person who can see that. She values that. She values a man. She thinks a man is more… is more powerful, is stronger. 356 00:32:04.380 –> 00:32:10.990 E: when he admits vulnerabilities and is not afraid to. The fear of looking weak, to her, would make me look weak. 357 00:32:11.420 –> 00:32:21.259 E: And so, she’s my partner for a reason, she’s my wife for a reason, I’m with her because she values that I am that way, and she sees it as attractive. 358 00:32:21.520 –> 00:32:24.440 E: So, you know, I shared it with her. 359 00:32:24.970 –> 00:32:32.990 E: And she’s, you know, I mean, she’s trying to make me feel better. It’s like, no, like, I’m sure it’s not as bad as you think, or blah blah blah. I know the answer is… 360 00:32:33.780 –> 00:32:36.310 E: Okay, I need to, like, not be stressed out about it. 361 00:32:36.780 –> 00:32:37.230 Kay: each nut. 362 00:32:37.230 –> 00:32:38.520 E: I feel anxiety about it. 363 00:32:39.010 –> 00:32:44.769 E: That’s on the emotional side. On the other side of things, on Monday morning, I’m gonna walk into work, what do I do? 364 00:32:45.460 –> 00:32:57.199 E: it’s really hard to do the, hey, I’m gonna walk in the Monday… I’m gonna walk in on Monday morning, and I should do something. It’s really hard to think about that when I’m experiencing the stress and anger and anxiety. 365 00:32:57.590 –> 00:33:05.569 E: It’s… it just muddies up the thinking. It doesn’t allow you to function well. 366 00:33:06.380 –> 00:33:08.010 E: Emotionally or mentally. 367 00:33:08.610 –> 00:33:13.189 E: I brought that to you, and it’s funny, because yeah, I know what the end result I want is. 368 00:33:13.190 –> 00:33:13.710 Kay: Damn. 369 00:33:13.710 –> 00:33:29.139 E: It’s me not feeling the anxiety or the stress, and it’s brainstorming what I should go do on Monday morning, and once you helped me realize that I was responding to my own thoughts. 370 00:33:29.480 –> 00:33:30.840 E: About the situation. 371 00:33:31.690 –> 00:33:33.540 E: And took me through this process. 372 00:33:35.100 –> 00:33:38.490 E: I could then have a different set of thoughts. 373 00:33:38.950 –> 00:33:43.199 E: about it. And I think that’s the thing you were talking about when you said. 374 00:33:43.840 –> 00:33:46.130 E: You knew the end result was gonna be… 375 00:33:46.580 –> 00:33:48.740 E: I like initiating the sex. I should. 376 00:33:49.410 –> 00:33:52.410 E: The original thought is… the original thought is. 377 00:33:52.760 –> 00:33:56.890 E: I don’t like that I’m always doing it. She should. That thought turned into… 378 00:33:57.110 –> 00:34:00.159 E: You know what? I like initiating it. She doesn’t have to. 379 00:34:00.650 –> 00:34:04.419 E: nothing changed, like, materially. Right. 380 00:34:05.040 –> 00:34:20.069 E: And wouldn’t it be nice if there was just, like, an AI chat prompt box where you could just program yourself to think something differently? Well, that’s what this is. That, to me, that’s what the work is. It’s you accessing a backdoor command 381 00:34:20.429 –> 00:34:25.310 E: You know, a backdoor, command console. 382 00:34:25.560 –> 00:34:29.050 E: Well, you’re literally typing in the code needed 383 00:34:29.510 –> 00:34:40.120 E: to change your thoughts. And that’s why you have to go through the process, is because, yeah, you know the end result, but you have to delete the old thoughts… That’s a good point. …by questioning them. 384 00:34:40.120 –> 00:34:42.920 Kay: And then you have to put in the new thoughts. 385 00:34:42.920 –> 00:34:55.909 E: You program them in by spelling them out very clearly. It’s the scaffolding that goes around the new thought to create it and build it up. That takes work. 386 00:34:56.300 –> 00:34:56.830 Kay: Yeah. 387 00:34:57.190 –> 00:34:58.450 E: That’s why it’s called The Work. 388 00:34:58.660 –> 00:35:02.539 E: It’s because you just can’t get there by someone telling you it’s going to be okay. 389 00:35:02.540 –> 00:35:03.230 Kay: Yeah. 390 00:35:04.040 –> 00:35:08.449 E: I think that’s a process, and I mean, maybe we can just go over it really quick, right? 391 00:35:09.210 –> 00:35:15.129 E: So I brought those things to you, right? And the first thing you told me was, Okay, well, let’s… 392 00:35:15.700 –> 00:35:23.520 E: tell me what happened, okay? I met with this, university team that I’m doing a project with. They’re external to my organization. 393 00:35:23.690 –> 00:35:30.049 E: the students, thought that I was harsh and mean and denigrating to them and disrespectful. 394 00:35:30.410 –> 00:35:32.469 E: It was a big misunderstanding. 395 00:35:32.690 –> 00:35:41.240 E: they just were silent the entire time, and I kind of rambled to fill the space in, and I thought I was being very helpful in giving some feedback on a product they made. 396 00:35:41.370 –> 00:35:46.810 E: Now, Without judging it, this product. 397 00:35:47.360 –> 00:35:59.129 E: was kind of sloppy as inconsistent. It looked as if no grown-up had looked at it. And these are college-age students in their 20s, anywhere between freshman to senior level, there’s, like, 5 of them. 398 00:35:59.730 –> 00:36:05.930 E: It was… it… you know… I could tell that no professor was guiding them, and they have a professor. 399 00:36:06.450 –> 00:36:16.319 E: And so, I kept trying to get them to kind of come back to this idea of, you know, maybe we need to work with the professor more, and they’re like, oh, no, no we don’t. And I’m like, look, I’m sure your professor must care. 400 00:36:16.610 –> 00:36:24.259 E: Or else… they wouldn’t be doing this. They read that as, oh, E… oh, sorry, fuck. Pugh Herman. 401 00:36:25.190 –> 00:36:29.470 E: They read that as me saying, Oh, he… 402 00:36:29.470 –> 00:36:31.609 Kay: He’s saying that our professor doesn’t care. 403 00:36:31.610 –> 00:36:46.820 E: And so that was in the email that the professor said to my boss and me. He said that, I don’t care, how dare he… he denigrated their work, he said it was sloppy, and then I tried to, use young people talk. I said. 404 00:36:46.970 –> 00:36:49.599 E: that they should touch grass, but what I meant is… 405 00:36:49.780 –> 00:36:53.100 E: They should reference a good source. 406 00:36:53.280 –> 00:36:59.010 E: to kind of ground truth what they had written, because it was wildly inaccurate, but I didn’t want to tell them that. 407 00:36:59.380 –> 00:37:06.599 E: Well, apparently, touching grass means when someone who’s on the internet and kind of a loser, who doesn’t know anything about the real world. 408 00:37:07.140 –> 00:37:23.350 E: You’re telling them to go out and actually touch grass, get to know the real world, because you’re such a shut-in loser. I did not know that, and I should have looked that up. And I have younger nieces, and sometimes they use words they give me, and I should not do that. Well, so anyway, all of that… 409 00:37:23.350 –> 00:37:25.989 Kay: Tell them, 6-7 next time, that’s supposed to be a… 410 00:37:25.990 –> 00:37:33.969 E: 6, 7. So all that added, right? And then you asked me, well, so that’s what happened, right? And I told you. And then you asked me, okay, great, now, what are your… 411 00:37:34.280 –> 00:37:38.849 E: let’s look at one of the thoughts. One of the thoughts I had that was stressing me out, and there was basically three. 412 00:37:39.000 –> 00:37:40.479 E: The three thoughts were. 413 00:37:40.910 –> 00:37:50.739 E: you know, my boss is kind of being a bitch right now, because my boss responded without, you know, talking to me first, and wants to hand over the project to someone else because I’m so terrible. 414 00:37:51.020 –> 00:37:55.410 E: The second related thought was, my boss. 415 00:37:55.520 –> 00:37:59.579 E: Is… so that first thought was, you know, my boss is throwing me under the bus. 416 00:37:59.580 –> 00:38:00.010 Kay: The second. 417 00:38:00.010 –> 00:38:03.790 E: thought was, My boss thinks I’m shit. 418 00:38:03.990 –> 00:38:04.890 Kay: Right? 419 00:38:05.180 –> 00:38:11.689 E: Because she thinks it can’t handle this. And the third related thought, an increasing order of. 420 00:38:11.690 –> 00:38:12.080 Kay: Catastrophe. 421 00:38:12.850 –> 00:38:15.819 E: is, she’s right that I am shit, I don’t. 422 00:38:15.820 –> 00:38:16.230 Kay: the line. 423 00:38:16.230 –> 00:38:17.599 E: in this job 424 00:38:18.210 –> 00:38:25.040 E: I will probably lose this job, and everyone will think I’m a loser, and then I’ll have to find another way of providing for my family. 425 00:38:25.410 –> 00:38:27.239 E: Which is a terrible thought to have. 426 00:38:28.610 –> 00:38:31.340 E: And you took me through them one by one, right? 427 00:38:32.060 –> 00:38:41.750 E: So that first thought of, like, oh wow… and I think, let’s just do this one thought. All the other thoughts went through similar things, but I really want to get into this dialogue with you 428 00:38:42.910 –> 00:38:48.420 E: The thought was… My boss throwing me under the bus, because she wrote an email back right away. 429 00:38:48.420 –> 00:38:48.960 Kay: Yeah. 430 00:38:48.960 –> 00:38:57.409 E: saying, I’m really sorry that your students had that experience. This is not, you know, how our organization operates. 431 00:38:58.030 –> 00:39:05.639 E: you know, his colleague is more than happy to kind of step in and take over. We can have a phone call and discuss it if you like. 432 00:39:06.070 –> 00:39:08.579 E: We want to make sure that you guys have a good experience. 433 00:39:08.940 –> 00:39:10.870 E: I read that as… 434 00:39:11.190 –> 00:39:19.349 E: you know, I believe you, E must have done these terrible things, he’s such a terrible person, I believe you, and now we’re gonna bring in his coworker who’s much better than him. 435 00:39:19.730 –> 00:39:27.280 E: For the record, my coworker is actually much better at this job than I am, but my coworker’s been doing it much longer than me. 436 00:39:27.600 –> 00:39:28.760 E: You said… 437 00:39:28.760 –> 00:39:31.190 Kay: It doesn’t feel good to feel… it doesn’t feel good to… 438 00:39:31.190 –> 00:39:31.760 E: No. 439 00:39:31.760 –> 00:39:36.580 Kay: To believe that that’s because of the… that you’re incompetent, right? And… 440 00:39:36.820 –> 00:39:40.500 Kay: And so in that moment, when you’re hearing… when you’re reading this. 441 00:39:41.280 –> 00:39:43.980 Kay: What’s interesting about this process is it sort of 442 00:39:45.390 –> 00:39:48.509 Kay: Breaks your… it starts to try to break 443 00:39:48.760 –> 00:39:52.070 Kay: Your strong assumption that what you are… 444 00:39:53.140 –> 00:39:55.460 Kay: Believing about the situation must be fact. 445 00:39:56.200 –> 00:39:58.929 Kay: Right, because in your mind initially. 446 00:39:59.400 –> 00:40:03.760 Kay: There was no question about what the intention of this email was, it was clearly… 447 00:40:04.780 –> 00:40:08.589 Kay: That she believed you were not competent, or whatever, right? 448 00:40:08.770 –> 00:40:13.329 Kay: Or she was… or that she was throwing you under the bus. She was throwing you under the bus, is the thought. 449 00:40:13.740 –> 00:40:18.940 Kay: There’s no question in your mind at that moment when you begin that that’s what happened. It’s just reality. 450 00:40:19.280 –> 00:40:24.280 Kay: In your mind. And that’s why… and then the ramifications of all that are very stressful. 451 00:40:25.340 –> 00:40:28.289 Kay: Yeah, and I think that this process… 452 00:40:29.440 –> 00:40:33.859 Kay: Yet, you know, the ultimate, like you said, the ultimate goal is to make you de-stressed. 453 00:40:36.140 –> 00:40:40.649 Kay: But it’s not even… interesting enough, it’s not even trying to get you to… 454 00:40:40.780 –> 00:40:44.109 Kay: To believe the opposite, per se. 455 00:40:44.370 –> 00:40:50.519 Kay: It’s actually trying to get you to be open to the opposite, which is a very interesting distinction, because… 456 00:40:51.910 –> 00:40:57.980 Kay: You can then, once you’re open to both possibilities, You become very flexible. 457 00:40:58.650 –> 00:41:00.960 Kay: And you become okay with almost either one. 458 00:41:01.280 –> 00:41:04.320 Kay: For instance, like, with the sex thing, I was saying. 459 00:41:04.660 –> 00:41:12.710 Kay: In my experience, it’s not that I don’t… it’s not… it’s like, okay, I’ve come to the conclusion I should initiate. 460 00:41:13.110 –> 00:41:21.560 Kay: It’s not to say that I now believe 100% I should always 100% initiate, and I now don’t ever want to go back to the possibility of her initiating. 461 00:41:21.740 –> 00:41:26.000 Kay: I would love that, and when it happens, it’s… Wonderful. 462 00:41:26.650 –> 00:41:43.680 Kay: And I still prefer it, actually. I actually can acknowledge that is awesome, but I also don’t know if that’s actually good for me all the time. It may be, actually, if I look at why is it good for me that I initiate 90% of the time and she initiates 10? Well, when she does that 10%, 463 00:41:44.240 –> 00:41:49.700 Kay: It’s so much more treasured by me, because it’s such a rare gem for me. 464 00:41:50.080 –> 00:42:01.689 Kay: And so now I can see the value of that in a way, maybe if I had it all the time, I would just not appreciate it. So I… but I still… it doesn’t mean that I now have… 465 00:42:02.250 –> 00:42:06.300 Kay: It’s almost like pulling you away from black and white thinking, because now I’m not thinking… 466 00:42:06.570 –> 00:42:12.430 Kay: always, you know, it should be, it should be equal, or whatever. Anyway, so we’re back to your thing. 467 00:42:12.920 –> 00:42:16.280 Kay: In your mind, initially, the temptation is to believe that 468 00:42:16.690 –> 00:42:21.040 Kay: she threw me under the bus, this is the… this is the baseline assumption I’m going to… 469 00:42:21.230 –> 00:42:23.209 Kay: To… to think and act from. 470 00:42:23.990 –> 00:42:29.000 Kay: And it’s probably because it’s true, right? And then… And then to actually… 471 00:42:29.110 –> 00:42:32.570 Kay: push against that and say, but is it true that 472 00:42:32.720 –> 00:42:37.590 Kay: Initially, it feels so, like, stupid, like, what are you talking about? Of course it’s true, it’s plain as day. 473 00:42:38.610 –> 00:42:39.180 E: Yeah. 474 00:42:39.890 –> 00:42:41.850 E: No, and that’s the thing, is… 475 00:42:42.690 –> 00:42:47.410 E: you said, you know, I mean, I’m paraphrasing here, I mean, this isn’t, you know. 476 00:42:47.700 –> 00:42:57.370 E: no one’s going to listen to this and then be able to do it right after, but hopefully this makes a great argument that people should look into this. And things like it. This is in the. 477 00:42:57.370 –> 00:42:58.150 Kay: Yeah, yeah, of course. 478 00:42:58.150 –> 00:42:59.170 E: It’s just what… 479 00:42:59.170 –> 00:42:59.680 Kay: Right, exactly. 480 00:42:59.680 –> 00:43:17.030 E: Because, I mean, I think you and I have had access to a lot of things like this, which is basically, their distinctions. Distinctions are tools of the mind to get you to say, oh, this is this thing, this is this other thing. 481 00:43:18.150 –> 00:43:24.730 E: And how you make distinctions in your reality is programmable. 482 00:43:24.840 –> 00:43:26.299 Kay: And it’s a choice. 483 00:43:26.310 –> 00:43:28.730 E: It doesn’t feel like a choice, but it’s a choice. 484 00:43:28.730 –> 00:43:29.899 Kay: Yeah, good point. 485 00:43:29.900 –> 00:43:31.189 E: And, and so… 486 00:43:31.550 –> 00:43:37.629 E: I, for example, right, just to kind of not focus on the work, even though that’s what we use in this particular case. Yeah. 487 00:43:38.080 –> 00:43:41.009 E: I did something called Landmark Education. 488 00:43:41.320 –> 00:43:54.030 E: for those that have heard of it and know it as a cult, it has, you know, things that I experienced that were cult-like, but it’s not a cult, because you could just stop whenever you want, and cults… 489 00:43:54.320 –> 00:43:56.380 E: Don’t really have that kind of policy. 490 00:43:56.380 –> 00:43:56.920 Kay: Very true. 491 00:43:56.920 –> 00:44:01.670 E: And I… I stopped going, and I survived. 492 00:44:02.440 –> 00:44:08.570 E: I didn’t have to… Also, I feel like an important part of cults is weird haircuts, and I did not have to get one. 493 00:44:08.570 –> 00:44:09.799 Kay: We do not have it, yes. 494 00:44:09.800 –> 00:44:13.130 E: you know, I’m just picking something at random, I feel like there’s… 495 00:44:13.250 –> 00:44:17.599 E: You know, as far as cults go, it’s missing a lot of the key aspects. 496 00:44:17.600 –> 00:44:19.050 Kay: Yeah, I would say… 497 00:44:19.050 –> 00:44:19.910 E: Clothes. 498 00:44:19.910 –> 00:44:27.540 Kay: They didn’t even touch the clothing thing, so… Everyone I’ve known who’s done it, including my sister, by the way, who’s now going back after a few years. 499 00:44:28.040 –> 00:44:30.030 Kay: Has 500 00:44:30.210 –> 00:44:35.939 Kay: Freely left for years at a time, and then maybe, you know, either never gone back or gone back. 501 00:44:36.200 –> 00:44:41.509 Kay: Either way, and that is not indicative of a cult where, they kind of… 502 00:44:41.930 –> 00:44:44.579 Kay: Yeah, are known to hound you for the rest of your life. 503 00:44:45.460 –> 00:44:51.570 E: I have a… I haven’t gotten an email from them in forever. They have a… or… or they don’t like me. 504 00:44:51.710 –> 00:44:54.489 Kay: I’m like, how good he’s gone. 505 00:44:54.650 –> 00:44:55.280 Kay: Yeah. 506 00:44:55.280 –> 00:45:03.939 E: Yeah, it’s fine, everyone. No, so Landmark Education’s another one I was really big into, but I did not do any of the seminars of the power. 507 00:45:03.940 –> 00:45:04.400 Kay: No. 508 00:45:04.400 –> 00:45:12.349 E: Right? Alright. Yeah, I read Alan Watt’s book, and I’ve listened to a lot of his audio recordings. 509 00:45:13.020 –> 00:45:18.760 Kay: And now the AI, YouTube videos, I assume you listen to a lot of those. Yeah, well… 510 00:45:18.760 –> 00:45:26.839 E: I’ve heard of them, I haven’t watched a ton of them, but, like, there are recordings of workshops he did, so it’s kind of like being a fly on the wall during a workshop. 511 00:45:26.840 –> 00:45:27.160 Kay: Yeah. 512 00:45:27.160 –> 00:45:30.150 E: He used to do this cool thing called, I’m God, Ask Me Anything. 513 00:45:30.490 –> 00:45:31.340 Kay: Okay. 514 00:45:31.340 –> 00:45:48.290 E: way before Charlie Kirk did. And so, although, I mean, I think that was a very useful thing he did, the, like, attention to a dialogue, because I want to prove my point. Alan Watts did the exact same thing. I think it’s a very powerful tool. It invites people in to be part of a conversation, and so it’s kind of like… 515 00:45:48.350 –> 00:45:54.229 E: a rope-a-dope. It’s kind of like, oh, okay, I’m gonna… I don’t feel threatened, I don’t feel like you’re gonna argue against me, but… 516 00:45:54.320 –> 00:45:57.280 E: The inquiry is the argument, 517 00:45:57.280 –> 00:45:58.010 Kay: Right. 518 00:45:58.530 –> 00:46:00.219 Kay: Correct method to some degree, do you think? 519 00:46:00.220 –> 00:46:04.139 E: Yeah, to some degree, yeah, of course. And so, to me, it’s like… 520 00:46:04.430 –> 00:46:14.810 E: There are a lot of ways to do this. You can read about Stoicism, because Stoicism has this idea that you can control what happens, but you can’t control how you react to it. 521 00:46:15.610 –> 00:46:22.389 E: And so, to me, the work is just, like, kind of one thing of many things that are useful, but we’re just talking about this because it recently happened. 522 00:46:22.480 –> 00:46:37.240 E: Anyway, you told me, right, like, okay, let’s get that one thought, and you have to… and I think that’s where having someone who knows what you’re doing really helps, because you can’t… and also, doing it by yourself, sometimes you could cheat yourself. Sometimes you want to make things easier for you. And this work is hard. 523 00:46:37.980 –> 00:46:38.300 Kay: Yeah. 524 00:46:38.300 –> 00:46:40.099 E: It’s not easy. You can’t wiggle out of it. 525 00:46:40.490 –> 00:46:47.250 E: that’s it, you can’t wiggle out of anything. And so you said, well, you know, what proof do you have? 526 00:46:47.410 –> 00:47:04.400 E: that that thought is true. And then at the moment, right, I’m feeling… I’m feeling it’s true. I try to rationalize it. I do believe humans are emotional animals first. We are emotional beings. We can… we’ve developed logic as a tool for survival. 527 00:47:04.620 –> 00:47:07.000 E: We can use… Logic. 528 00:47:07.430 –> 00:47:14.299 E: just like you can use a car to deliver meals on Wheels, you can also use a car to run over people. 529 00:47:14.700 –> 00:47:22.579 E: And so, and so this brain of ours is just, like, this amazing tool that feels things. It also can think things. 530 00:47:22.740 –> 00:47:27.689 E: We tend to feel things first when it comes to really exciting moments. 531 00:47:27.870 –> 00:47:34.619 E: Seeing a naked woman, I’m not gonna think, I wonder when was the last time she saw a dermatologist? 532 00:47:35.370 –> 00:47:38.140 E: I might get there eventually, maybe after. 533 00:47:38.430 –> 00:47:43.400 E: But, yeah, so to me, it’s… it’s like… 534 00:47:46.110 –> 00:47:49.500 E: okay, how is this true? And I thought, well, of course it’s true. 535 00:47:49.720 –> 00:47:53.009 E: that my boss threw me under the bus. Look at this email! 536 00:47:53.010 –> 00:47:53.910 Kay: Right? 537 00:47:54.050 –> 00:47:58.059 E: She references my colleague, she apologizes. 538 00:47:59.140 –> 00:48:04.909 E: she already hates me, which I know that, and then you said, well, okay, but is that true, though? 539 00:48:05.840 –> 00:48:08.309 E: And then I said these things, and you said, well. 540 00:48:08.830 –> 00:48:22.050 E: you were describing to me the email, and it doesn’t seem like she’s throwing you under the bus. She… nowhere does she mention your name. Nowhere does she say that you did this thing wrong. Nowhere, right? And even if she did, it would be a different conversation. 541 00:48:23.090 –> 00:48:27.319 E: But in this… in this case, the facts, you know. 542 00:48:27.810 –> 00:48:33.939 E: You said… you left… you kind of showed me, you kind of saw a little fissure, and you cracked it open with a crowbar, and you. 543 00:48:33.940 –> 00:48:34.640 Kay: They’re like. 544 00:48:35.290 –> 00:48:47.199 E: there’s a case to be made that that’s not true. And you got me to see that in the moment. And I think that’s the hardest thing to do in the process, and that’s why you really need a partner who has your trust and credibility. 545 00:48:47.200 –> 00:48:47.970 Kay: Right. 546 00:48:47.970 –> 00:48:52.260 E: You need someone that you trust, and love. 547 00:48:52.690 –> 00:48:54.479 E: And I love you, Kay. 548 00:48:54.620 –> 00:48:58.480 E: You need someone you trust and love, because they’re gonna disagree with you. 549 00:48:58.750 –> 00:49:03.950 E: And we sometimes take disagreement as a sign that they don’t trust or love you. 550 00:49:04.610 –> 00:49:05.100 Kay: if you… 551 00:49:05.100 –> 00:49:11.300 E: who know they trust and love you, and you trust and love them, and that this agreement is fine. 552 00:49:12.890 –> 00:49:31.889 E: And so, that’s the hardest part. Now, you could also see an expert, and now, well, you don’t trust and love them, but you trust them because they’re an expert, and you’re convinced of that, so when they disagree with you, you will take it seriously, right? So, basically, what’s missing there is that kind of trust, and so when you said, well, I don’t really see it, I didn’t get offended that you didn’t see it. 553 00:49:31.890 –> 00:49:33.010 Kay: Yeah, I’m like… 554 00:49:33.010 –> 00:49:34.340 E: Wow, maybe you’re right. 555 00:49:35.020 –> 00:49:36.330 E: And so… 556 00:49:36.470 –> 00:49:40.879 E: My wife also said the exact same thing, but she didn’t really read the email, and she didn’t ask me for a break. 557 00:49:40.880 –> 00:49:41.359 Kay: break down. 558 00:49:41.360 –> 00:49:44.530 E: She didn’t want to make it worse. She didn’t want me to, like, relive it or whatever. 559 00:49:44.750 –> 00:49:50.440 E: But the training kicked in, and I think men are more likely to ask for details and facts. 560 00:49:50.550 –> 00:49:57.600 E: I think women are more likely to see those as attacks on your version of the story. I know that from experience, or at least. 561 00:49:57.600 –> 00:49:58.250 Kay: Sounds what? 562 00:49:58.860 –> 00:49:59.370 Kay: subject. 563 00:49:59.370 –> 00:50:00.000 E: That’s how it… 564 00:50:00.000 –> 00:50:00.790 Kay: can do. 565 00:50:01.030 –> 00:50:04.190 E: That’s how my wife works, so maybe… I don’t know if… I wouldn’t say… 566 00:50:04.190 –> 00:50:06.200 Kay: She knows what she’s doing. 567 00:50:06.200 –> 00:50:12.430 E: Yeah, exactly. Well, so anyway, so you got me to question that that’s what happened. 568 00:50:12.990 –> 00:50:20.660 E: And so, you made a very lawyerly case against it, and then I… I… you said, is there… 569 00:50:21.480 –> 00:50:33.009 E: any evidence to the contrary, and you didn’t directly go there, right? You say, like, well, is that true? And then, you know, it was kind of tough at first, and you said, well, is there any way to know 100%. 570 00:50:33.010 –> 00:50:33.580 Kay: True. 571 00:50:33.870 –> 00:50:35.519 E: Is there any way… 572 00:50:35.660 –> 00:50:44.510 E: Know that 100%. And the answer is almost always going to be no. Because even if she was in front of me saying, I’m gonna throw you under the bus. 573 00:50:45.140 –> 00:50:48.299 E: Even then, you’re like, well, that’s just what she’s saying in that. 574 00:50:48.300 –> 00:50:48.930 Kay: Right. 575 00:50:49.550 –> 00:50:50.969 Kay: She could have a gun to her head. 576 00:50:51.150 –> 00:50:57.079 Kay: You know, we don’t… Exactly, but that… but once again, let’s not argue about what’s not there. Right. What we had was the email. 577 00:50:57.080 –> 00:50:59.300 E: And you made a very good point. You’re like. 578 00:50:59.910 –> 00:51:12.939 E: hey, well, you’re not gonna call her up, you’re not gonna email your boss right now, so you have no way of knowing that to be true. And that was part of the stress, that’s part of the anxiety. I wanted answers, right? I wanted to talk to her in this emotional state I was in. 579 00:51:13.250 –> 00:51:26.309 E: So you got me to question whether or not what I was thinking about what happened was true. And then you turn it on its head, right? And you ask me, well, what’s the opposite of that? And the opposite of that is, oh, my boss is protecting me. 580 00:51:27.330 –> 00:51:33.120 E: And it’s really hard to say that. And I think the more emotional you are in the moment. 581 00:51:33.340 –> 00:51:35.990 E: The harder it is to say that. 582 00:51:38.250 –> 00:51:44.759 E: And it was… I’m telling you, it’s really difficult, but you can get there, because if you’re dedicated to the process working. 583 00:51:44.920 –> 00:51:52.289 E: okay, well, let’s… let’s just explore how that could be true. So I’m not saying it’s true, but let’s just take that antithesis. 584 00:51:52.840 –> 00:51:59.869 E: And let’s see how it could be true. Let’s investigate. Let’s look for clues. And to me, that’s what a… that’s a very powerful step. 585 00:52:00.050 –> 00:52:07.009 E: because… Now, you know, you tend to find facts to prove what you’re already thinking. 586 00:52:07.130 –> 00:52:11.810 E: Right. So you take advantage of that process by changing the final thought 587 00:52:12.170 –> 00:52:15.330 E: You don’t have to believe it right away, you just… you put up the scaffolding. 588 00:52:15.540 –> 00:52:22.180 E: You build up the scaffolding. Hey, this is the shape we want the final thing to be in. Can you find any evidence that it’s true? 589 00:52:22.710 –> 00:52:25.600 E: And so, we looked for evidence together. 590 00:52:26.480 –> 00:52:31.980 E: And in the email, they didn’t… you know, my boss didn’t blame me directly. In the email. 591 00:52:32.310 –> 00:52:37.659 E: She responded right away, maybe to avoid me stepping in and making it worse. 592 00:52:38.110 –> 00:52:45.499 E: maybe she realized, you know what? This professor who wrote this email is nuts. I’m just gonna calm her down so everyone can have a good weekend. 593 00:52:47.120 –> 00:52:52.230 E: And I was able to think of enough ways that that is true. 594 00:52:54.210 –> 00:53:00.179 E: that I’m like, okay, it is quite possible that she thinks she’s protecting me. 595 00:53:00.380 –> 00:53:07.379 E: And we talked about this, and then I talked about my boss and how she is, and you’re like, actually, yeah, I can see that too, maybe she’s not really good at communicating it. 596 00:53:08.430 –> 00:53:12.889 E: But… Maybe, now that you’re calmed down and… 597 00:53:13.000 –> 00:53:26.429 E: you know, and there was a lot more steps, by the way, right? You had me… and this is a… and this is a… this is a process that is used in hypnotherapy, it’s a process that’s used in neuro-linguistic programming, if anyone’s ever tried that. 598 00:53:26.510 –> 00:53:37.899 E: Which is, you get the person to talk about the feeling and give it a shape and a sense, and you put a physical location to it, you tie it to the body, which gives a person an ability to find it. 599 00:53:38.410 –> 00:53:40.060 E: And if you can find it. 600 00:53:40.170 –> 00:53:41.650 E: You can do things to it. 601 00:53:42.270 –> 00:53:43.370 E: That’s the key. 602 00:53:43.490 –> 00:53:50.479 E: And so, you talked about what is the emotion, where does it come from, what does it feel like? Getting me to experience it again. 603 00:53:50.690 –> 00:53:54.260 E: Because you have to have it right in front of you to be able to examine it. 604 00:53:54.510 –> 00:53:56.809 E: And then, what does it feel like 605 00:53:57.190 –> 00:54:00.500 E: To think this other thing, which is, wow, my boss is protecting me. 606 00:54:02.110 –> 00:54:06.159 E: And just saying that, and thinking about how that was, and we’re talking about something that was, like, 2 weeks ago. 607 00:54:06.460 –> 00:54:10.560 E: even now, I felt like a rush of… relief. 608 00:54:11.250 –> 00:54:11.769 Kay: And I’m like. 609 00:54:11.770 –> 00:54:15.579 E: Oh, wow, man, I’m so lucky to have this boss who wants to protect me. 610 00:54:16.290 –> 00:54:23.250 E: And you went through all the other thoughts I was having, you know, she thinks I’m shit, she thinks I’m terrible, I don’t belong in this job. 611 00:54:23.460 –> 00:54:28.010 E: We went… we did this exact same process with the rest of those. And then after we did that. 612 00:54:28.270 –> 00:54:31.320 E: you talked to me about, okay, well, let’s talk about what are you gonna do on Monday. 613 00:54:31.600 –> 00:54:37.739 E: And with this new clarity of thought, with the anxiety and stress just dissipated. 614 00:54:38.020 –> 00:54:45.859 E: it was like, oh, you know what? On Monday, I should go in there. I’m not even gonna try to defend myself. But I could do that because I didn’t emotionally feel attached to. 615 00:54:45.860 –> 00:54:46.570 Kay: to the criticism. 616 00:54:46.570 –> 00:54:47.040 E: anymore. 617 00:54:47.040 –> 00:54:47.670 Kay: Got it. 618 00:54:48.140 –> 00:54:49.109 E: And it’s like… 619 00:54:49.240 –> 00:55:01.060 E: oh, okay, I’m not even gonna defend myself, I’m just gonna say, hey, look, you know, obviously, the session with the students went really badly. It wasn’t my intention, I wanted it to go well, and it didn’t go well. And I regret that, and I’m sorry about that. 620 00:55:01.370 –> 00:55:11.289 E: I don’t think I did anything wrong, but that’s not the point. The point is we need to move forward, and, you know, we as an organization don’t look good because of it, and I want to fix it. And if that means 621 00:55:11.480 –> 00:55:23.850 E: I’m, you know, I’m perfectly willing to apologize to the students and to the professor, and the apology isn’t, I’m sorry I did a bad thing. The apology is, I really regret that you had that experience. It wasn’t my intention. 622 00:55:23.860 –> 00:55:31.630 E: And just the fact that you had those thoughts meant that I didn’t accomplish my goal. And, you know, I regret that, because 623 00:55:31.740 –> 00:55:39.910 E: ideally, you guys would come away feeling the same thing I do, which is appreciation and joy that we’re doing this thing together. 624 00:55:40.060 –> 00:55:43.319 E: It’s given me something to think about and to kind of recalibrate. 625 00:55:43.500 –> 00:55:50.910 E: And I hope that we can, you know, like that. And so, when I talked to my boss about this, and you told me something very important, you’re like. 626 00:55:51.190 –> 00:56:09.070 E: well, this thought that she’s protecting you, go in with that thought, lead with that, and then that made me naturally, not in a calculated way, I actually felt thankful for that, right? And I just assumed it’s true, because it’s more useful to assume that is true than the opposite. 627 00:56:10.380 –> 00:56:18.460 E: And so, I went in there, and I’m just like, hey, by the way, I just, you know, before we get into all this about how to fix it, I just want to say that I really appreciate the email you sent. 628 00:56:19.020 –> 00:56:26.110 E: thank you for protecting me, thank you for calming her down and stepping in so I didn’t have to, because I was furious. 629 00:56:26.420 –> 00:56:31.279 E: And I see that you do that, and this isn’t the first time, and I just want to say that I appreciate it, and… 630 00:56:31.550 –> 00:56:33.620 E: you know, I want to fix it. 631 00:56:34.000 –> 00:56:42.130 E: And she was like, oh wow, you get it. And that blew my mind. Even if she was lying, even if that was not true. 632 00:56:42.700 –> 00:56:50.319 E: just acting as if that were true was so powerful, and it… and it changed how she acted. It changed how… 633 00:56:50.320 –> 00:56:52.790 Kay: Did you actually say you get it? Is that… what did she say? 634 00:56:52.790 –> 00:56:55.829 E: No, no, no, no, but, no, no, no, she was like. 635 00:56:55.830 –> 00:56:58.420 Kay: She just, like, was agreeing, like, yeah, no. 636 00:56:58.420 –> 00:57:02.449 E: Got it. Yeah, you know, it’s okay, E, it’s my job. 637 00:57:02.710 –> 00:57:04.370 Kay: Got it, got it, yeah, yeah. 638 00:57:04.840 –> 00:57:05.460 Kay: Interesting. 639 00:57:05.460 –> 00:57:08.219 E: And it was… it’s just one of those things, someone says something that’s obvious. 640 00:57:08.340 –> 00:57:09.260 Kay: Right. Right? 641 00:57:09.510 –> 00:57:13.709 E: And she just agreed, like, right away. She’s like, yeah, of course. She wasn’t like, what are you talking about? 642 00:57:13.710 –> 00:57:14.640 Kay: Yeah, yeah. 643 00:57:14.640 –> 00:57:16.769 E: So it’s one of those… 644 00:57:16.770 –> 00:57:18.550 Kay: It’s one of those things… 645 00:57:18.960 –> 00:57:26.510 E: Even… yeah, I guess it didn’t work. Because even if she… let’s say she was trying to throw me under the bus. Yeah. Well, she has to pretend she’s not. 646 00:57:26.510 –> 00:57:27.000 Kay: Right. 647 00:57:27.000 –> 00:57:29.250 E: Her pretending she’s not is already… 648 00:57:29.580 –> 00:57:32.780 E: like a small victory, right? So either way, it’s so funny to me. 649 00:57:33.060 –> 00:57:38.620 E: you know, and I do want to wrap this up, because if someone’s not into this topic, this is a pretty tedious conversation. 650 00:57:40.760 –> 00:57:46.530 E: My takeaway is this. Don’t believe the things you think about what happened. 651 00:57:46.650 –> 00:57:49.959 E: What happened to you and how you react are two different things. 652 00:57:50.350 –> 00:57:53.969 E: And there are many ways. There are many ways. 653 00:57:54.200 –> 00:57:55.830 E: To change your thoughts. 654 00:57:56.370 –> 00:57:57.910 E: About the things that happen. 655 00:57:58.120 –> 00:58:06.580 E: the work, Katie Byron, is one way. I find it very powerful and faster and more grounded than a lot of the other things I’ve learned. 656 00:58:07.100 –> 00:58:16.909 E: Hypnotherapy works really well. NLP, if you’re an NLP person, but it requires you to really read up on it. NLP can be a quite esoteric 657 00:58:17.270 –> 00:58:26.190 E: practice, the people who invented NLP were, if I’m not mistaken, actual practicing, like, psychotherapists. 658 00:58:26.190 –> 00:58:27.180 Kay: Oh, cool, okay. 659 00:58:27.180 –> 00:58:32.950 E: And so, it, you know, it was… I know about it, because it was used a lot in, pickup. 660 00:58:33.440 –> 00:58:43.359 E: That’s where I learned some of the tricks about it, but then once I was very happily married, and very happy with my romantic relationships, I actually ended up using NLP on myself a lot. 661 00:58:43.360 –> 00:58:43.970 Kay: Hmm. 662 00:58:44.280 –> 00:58:44.680 E: I still use. 663 00:58:44.680 –> 00:58:45.120 Kay: network. 664 00:58:45.450 –> 00:58:47.049 Kay: Used for, right? 665 00:58:47.050 –> 00:58:49.460 E: It was used for patients. It was used for patients. 666 00:58:50.160 –> 00:58:58.179 E: To, smoking cessation, to curb, damaging, habits. 667 00:58:58.360 –> 00:59:12.339 E: And as a psychotherapy tool, absolutely. So anyway, or you could go to the Landmark Education, you can go to the forum, it is 3 very painful days where you will have to confront and operationalize 668 00:59:12.700 –> 00:59:17.170 E: Their concepts, and that is a really… you gotta have a lot of… 669 00:59:17.500 –> 00:59:22.379 Kay: guts to do that whole program. People quit during the program, because that’s… 670 00:59:22.380 –> 00:59:25.800 E: How hard it is to confront a lot of your long-standing 671 00:59:26.040 –> 00:59:30.179 E: a lot of your long-standing, thoughts. But anyway, my point is. 672 00:59:30.400 –> 00:59:34.859 E: We experienced something together that directly showed us 673 00:59:35.170 –> 00:59:41.020 E: that that’s true. And you can say it all day you want, you can read Marcus Aurelius and talk about it on your podcast. 674 00:59:41.020 –> 00:59:41.620 Kay: Yeah. 675 00:59:41.620 –> 00:59:49.200 E: But to actually you and I, successfully, together, destroyed non… useful thoughts. 676 00:59:49.200 –> 00:59:50.540 Kay: Yeah, that was powerful. 677 00:59:50.540 –> 00:59:53.540 E: Created new, useful thoughts. 678 00:59:53.850 –> 00:59:57.319 E: And… and one of the… I remember one of the NLP… 679 00:59:57.500 –> 01:00:00.470 E: you know, in the book, I think from Frog into Princess, I think it was named. 680 01:00:00.470 –> 01:00:01.150 Kay: the book. 681 01:00:01.150 –> 01:00:03.619 E: We’re the two psychotherapists. 682 01:00:04.000 –> 01:00:07.439 E: It’s a transcript from a… 683 01:00:07.610 –> 01:00:09.969 E: Conference that they went to where they introduced the idea. 684 01:00:10.760 –> 01:00:15.199 E: with other psychotherapists, I mean, People challenging them on all aspects. 685 01:00:15.560 –> 01:00:18.740 E: They said, look, it’s all made up anyway. 686 01:00:19.530 –> 01:00:23.930 E: Why not pick the thoughts that are useful? 687 01:00:23.930 –> 01:00:25.140 Kay: Yeah. 688 01:00:25.140 –> 01:00:30.939 E: And I think it was… and Landmark Education did the same thing. I’m not giving anything away here, I’m not… 689 01:00:31.130 –> 01:00:33.710 Kay: Yeah. Violating any NDAs. 690 01:00:33.710 –> 01:00:35.659 E: And I’m paraphrasing, but that… 691 01:00:35.780 –> 01:00:41.099 E: NLP, even Zen Buddhism, to an extent, has things that sound like this, which is… 692 01:00:41.100 –> 01:00:41.620 Kay: Yeah. 693 01:00:42.490 –> 01:00:48.710 E: You know what? Maybe this is all a lie. Maybe the thing we’re teaching you or showing you, these methods, these… 694 01:00:48.710 –> 01:00:49.600 Kay: tools. 695 01:00:49.600 –> 01:00:53.560 E: Maybe they’re all a lie, but it’s a useful lie. 696 01:00:53.560 –> 01:00:58.920 Kay: And since everything you live and do is a lie anyway, why not use this one? 697 01:00:58.920 –> 01:01:00.400 E: That serves you. 698 01:01:00.400 –> 01:01:01.000 Kay: True. 699 01:01:01.140 –> 01:01:08.269 E: and drop all the other ones. Even Viktor Frankl, right? Man’s Quest for Meaning, or Man’s Search for Meaning. 700 01:01:08.390 –> 01:01:10.860 E: It arrives to the same… 701 01:01:11.390 –> 01:01:15.869 Kay: you know, it describes the same problem. Why did so many… You define your reasoning. You define your. 702 01:01:15.870 –> 01:01:16.320 E: That’s it. 703 01:01:16.320 –> 01:01:17.270 Kay: I agree, yeah. 704 01:01:17.490 –> 01:01:19.350 E: Yeah, your purpose in life, which you define. 705 01:01:19.350 –> 01:01:20.150 Kay: is what… 706 01:01:20.150 –> 01:01:34.040 E: makes life livable, or it makes it a living hell. And he went through the Holocaust, and he was at Auschwitz, and there were people who simply, physically, psychologically could not make it anymore. They weren’t killed, they died. 707 01:01:34.040 –> 01:01:34.620 Kay: Right. 708 01:01:35.320 –> 01:01:38.829 E: And what a terrible, wasteful thing, and if that… 709 01:01:39.120 –> 01:01:42.550 E: Terrible set of circumstances, that murdering of people. 710 01:01:42.910 –> 01:01:44.950 Kay: Can be lived through. 711 01:01:44.950 –> 01:01:53.069 E: psychologically, Then, you know… The time your boss was mean to you probably can also be… 712 01:01:53.070 –> 01:01:53.500 Kay: Oh, yeah. 713 01:01:53.500 –> 01:01:54.390 E: dealt with, right? 714 01:01:54.390 –> 01:01:59.849 Kay: Not to compare suffering. Again, you know that on a… we all kind of know that on a… 715 01:02:00.150 –> 01:02:01.830 Kay: A skin-deep level. 716 01:02:02.360 –> 01:02:02.870 E: Yep. 717 01:02:02.870 –> 01:02:04.979 Kay: is getting to there, and I… 718 01:02:08.680 –> 01:02:16.230 Kay: I would say that, yeah, any of these… any of these tools… R… 719 01:02:17.420 –> 01:02:19.729 Kay: there to just kind of… I guess… 720 01:02:19.940 –> 01:02:25.869 Kay: So, I guess it’s our attachment to stuff. Anyway, I just blanked out on what I was gonna say. Your Viktor Frankl thing… 721 01:02:26.670 –> 01:02:35.569 Kay: pulled me into it, and I think it’s a very powerful… as you say, He goes to this immensely… 722 01:02:35.710 –> 01:02:41.249 Kay: crazy experience. I mean, the first half of that book is… Jaw-dropping. Every 5 seconds. 723 01:02:41.250 –> 01:02:42.230 E: Oh my god. 724 01:02:42.520 –> 01:02:43.060 Kay: And just… 725 01:02:43.060 –> 01:02:50.169 E: And worth… worth reading over and over again, especially given nowadays where people deny any of that, actually. 726 01:02:50.170 –> 01:03:02.850 Kay: Yeah, oh, I don’t know, yeah, I mean, it’s incredible, and then you’re just… you just can’t believe someone lived through this and had anything positive to say about the world afterwards. But the value of… 727 01:03:03.510 –> 01:03:04.910 Kay: that book. 728 01:03:05.430 –> 01:03:11.710 Kay: is… And the number of people that reference… I mean, every… it’s almost like a required reading for life. 729 01:03:11.920 –> 01:03:14.070 Kay: Everyone’s read the book that I know. 730 01:03:14.180 –> 01:03:19.909 Kay: And… and has come away with such… Powerful, insights. 731 01:03:20.330 –> 01:03:26.300 Kay: But if you think about it, you walk into that… you walk into Auschwitz with maybe a model in the mind of how 732 01:03:26.550 –> 01:03:28.399 Kay: What purpose is in life? 733 01:03:29.560 –> 01:03:31.870 Kay: That you’ve been fed by society and stuff. 734 01:03:33.210 –> 01:03:37.850 Kay: If you want… If there’s any kind of machine that can rip that 735 01:03:38.260 –> 01:03:40.550 Kay: model apart, it would be Auschwitz. 736 01:03:40.950 –> 01:03:48.260 Kay: And then you’re… you’re… He walks out with a completely different understanding of what life is about. 737 01:03:49.310 –> 01:03:53.690 Kay: And it’s really… and it’s really at the… it’s… it’s… it… there’s no… 738 01:03:54.460 –> 01:03:59.960 Kay: mythology left. It just strips all mythology away, and now there’s just the truth, which is… 739 01:04:00.330 –> 01:04:05.379 Kay: You must create your own meaning, because there’s nothing he could rely on, there’s nothing… 740 01:04:05.510 –> 01:04:15.139 Kay: he can say, well, it’s all about, you know, God’s will, or da-da-da will, or, you know, any… all that’s just a story. All that’s left is just… 741 01:04:15.590 –> 01:04:18.919 Kay: It’s… Me, and what is me? 742 01:04:19.820 –> 01:04:30.920 Kay: Is it the… is it the guy in a body, in this meat body? Or is it… is me something that we don’t understand, the unknown, you know? That… and you were kind of talking about the oneness of it all. 743 01:04:31.230 –> 01:04:34.800 Kay: I had this thought the other day, which I thought was interesting. 744 01:04:35.840 –> 01:04:40.190 Kay: I was listening to this book, or something like that, and I thought. 745 01:04:41.510 –> 01:04:44.770 Kay: It was really resonating with me, and I was like, wow, what a deep thought. 746 01:04:45.010 –> 01:04:47.059 Kay: I’m so… and I had this weird… 747 01:04:47.770 –> 01:04:56.570 Kay: it was almost like a twist of the thought that I had, that I thought, yeah, this is a beautiful idea, what a beautiful insight. And there was a sense of, like, this is my insight. 748 01:04:57.130 –> 01:04:58.060 Kay: This is… 749 01:04:58.810 –> 01:05:03.940 Kay: And it was almost like I create… it’s almost like I created this inside. It was like, oh, I’m so proud of my… 750 01:05:04.270 –> 01:05:09.589 Kay: of my insight, and then I thought to myself, but I didn’t publish this book. 751 01:05:10.020 –> 01:05:11.860 Kay: I didn’t… I’m not the one… 752 01:05:13.210 –> 01:05:24.500 Kay: making the YouTube video, or whatever it was, I don’t know what medium it was. I’m… and then I thought even worse, and I haven’t published anything. This is the podcast, this is as far as I’ve gone. I haven’t… 753 01:05:25.290 –> 01:05:28.960 Kay: important person. I’m not a teacher out there teaching this to anybody. 754 01:05:29.380 –> 01:05:38.559 Kay: What… how do… how dare I assume that this is my teaching, or my inst… my, my insight… 755 01:05:39.380 –> 01:05:42.099 Kay: And then the other thought came after that, which was… 756 01:05:42.770 –> 01:05:46.520 Kay: I think it’s because, deep down, I am that person. 757 01:05:47.030 –> 01:05:52.310 Kay: I don’t know, it was just a weird thought. Like, it’s deep down, I am… not that person, but I am… 758 01:05:54.000 –> 01:06:01.349 Kay: the same consciousness of where that thought came from, and was birthed from. There’s this kind of deep pool of insight. 759 01:06:01.620 –> 01:06:05.380 Kay: And because I know that’s deep within me, it’s deeper than that. 760 01:06:05.680 –> 01:06:06.390 Kay: Personally. 761 01:06:07.030 –> 01:06:12.750 Kay: who gave me the teaching. And it was a very interesting, kind of, like, sense of, like, wow, I don’t need to be the one out there 762 01:06:13.000 –> 01:06:18.940 Kay: You know, writing books and… You know, being interviewed on Oprah. I don’t need that. 763 01:06:19.670 –> 01:06:25.949 Kay: to feel an ownership of that insight. It’s… it was a very beautiful sense of oneness. 764 01:06:26.090 –> 01:06:28.169 Kay: That I, had for a moment. 765 01:06:28.590 –> 01:06:34.490 Kay: And, yeah, I think what you’re talking about, like, when we did that together, it was very much a… 766 01:06:35.120 –> 01:06:39.410 Kay: It was very much a partnership in that kind of experience a few weeks ago, because. 767 01:06:39.410 –> 01:06:39.809 E: Yeah, man. 768 01:06:39.810 –> 01:06:45.930 Kay: I walked away with amazing insights from that, just like, wow, what am I looking at in my world where I think 769 01:06:46.040 –> 01:06:51.319 Kay: I’m so sure this is how it is, and then I… it just falls apart, you know, when I actually look into it. 770 01:06:52.110 –> 01:06:52.760 E: Yeah? 771 01:06:53.390 –> 01:06:54.220 Kay: How things are going. 772 01:06:54.220 –> 01:06:56.330 E: And that’s the thing, it’s like, when you’re… 773 01:06:57.500 –> 01:07:01.550 E: When you see it being done, you see it’s possible. 774 01:07:01.550 –> 01:07:03.739 Kay: Yeah. And then once you know it’s possible. 775 01:07:04.490 –> 01:07:13.810 E: you want to apply it to so many things, because it’s an amazing tool. And it’s kind of like, it’s kind of a little bit like magic, it’s a little bit like getting… it’s like… 776 01:07:13.990 –> 01:07:17.429 E: Tickling. You can’t tickle yourself, and sometimes you can’t… 777 01:07:17.700 –> 01:07:20.119 E: Sometimes it’s really hard to find your own insights. 778 01:07:20.250 –> 01:07:21.080 Kay: Yeah. 779 01:07:21.770 –> 01:07:24.950 E: I mean, you know, there are drugs… drugs that will help you do that. 780 01:07:26.060 –> 01:07:29.060 E: But, you know, that’s just one of the many tools. 781 01:07:29.280 –> 01:07:35.009 Kay: Absolutely. I like the idea of, like, there’s all these tools, and to your point, by the way, I… 782 01:07:35.390 –> 01:07:38.019 Kay: This is a quick, hopefully a quick story, but I… 783 01:07:38.250 –> 01:07:44.540 Kay: have been dealing with my… you know, what I’ve been trying to look at recently is my own anger. I’m a, 784 01:07:45.370 –> 01:07:56.659 Kay: I don’t know how much I should… how much I give this credit, but I… I would say that I… I am a typical Scorpio, or whatever that’s worth, meaning that I can get very hot very quickly. 785 01:07:56.840 –> 01:08:01.630 Kay: And then I’ll forget about it. I’m very, you know, I usually don’t hold on to grudges very long, but… 786 01:08:02.560 –> 01:08:05.399 Kay: If I’m in a situation where my kids are 787 01:08:05.680 –> 01:08:08.819 Kay: Are bothering me, which has been happening more and more. 788 01:08:09.230 –> 01:08:11.080 Kay: As they get older, and… 789 01:08:11.280 –> 01:08:16.180 Kay: And it’s… and it’s not them, it’s… it’s just my sensitivities and my triggers, right? 790 01:08:16.590 –> 01:08:26.649 Kay: And so what I’ve been working with recently, I’ve got, you know, again, I got mad the other day, one of my kids felt guilty pretty much that whole day, like, okay, I really got too mad. 791 01:08:26.800 –> 01:08:31.150 Kay: And for something that shouldn’t be, yeah, shouldn’t be a big deal. 792 01:08:31.290 –> 01:08:46.010 Kay: And so, you know, they were fighting with each other, it was annoying, but it wasn’t really that… did they… did I really need to react that way I did? So anyway, I’m thinking about this, and my go-to’s with this kind of stuff is, okay, I’ve got a problem, I’ve got a… 793 01:08:46.279 –> 01:08:50.859 Kay: I’ve got a habit that I need to fix, or resolve, or reduce. 794 01:08:52.100 –> 01:09:01.439 Kay: The answer to doing this must be that I have to go deep into my psychological… you know, complex. 795 01:09:02.689 –> 01:09:08.009 Kay: start digging in and peeling back the layers of the onion. I gotta get to the center of the problem. 796 01:09:08.010 –> 01:09:09.170 E: serious work. 797 01:09:09.170 –> 01:09:14.529 Kay: very, yeah, serious work, it’s gonna be a long journey, and I’m, like, thinking to myself, this is gonna be hard, because… 798 01:09:14.760 –> 01:09:22.719 Kay: I’ve already done, like, 25 years of spirituality, and I still haven’t gone there. I’m still pissy. Still angry. 799 01:09:23.300 –> 01:09:28.789 Kay: And I, and I, you know, when I’m… When these blow-ups happen. 800 01:09:29.000 –> 01:09:35.229 Kay: I feel like I’m not even able to control it. It’s just out of my control. So clearly, I’ve got to go really deep into this onion. 801 01:09:35.510 –> 01:09:42.289 Kay: I don’t know if I can, I don’t know what the hope is here. Anyway, I… I could have done Byron Katie, I could have done some of this stuff. 802 01:09:42.970 –> 01:09:44.370 Kay: Buddhism landmark. 803 01:09:45.630 –> 01:09:53.250 Kay: But I found this book in my Audible library, which I hadn’t read, called, How to Stop Losing Your Shit with Your Kids. 804 01:09:53.649 –> 01:09:55.930 E: Written by a plain Jane… 805 01:09:55.960 –> 01:09:57.520 Kay: therapist, I think. 806 01:09:58.020 –> 01:10:12.930 Kay: not spiritual at all, just practical psychology. And I thought, okay, well, I’m desperate, I gotta… I don’t think this will help me. Pretty sure it won’t help me, but it’ll probably give me… it’ll give me some corny tricks to try, and none of them will work. That’s kind of what I thought. 807 01:10:13.390 –> 01:10:16.279 Kay: But I have to say, it blew my fucking mind. It… 808 01:10:16.470 –> 01:10:22.529 Kay: It gave me a whole new paradigm to the problem, and it brought to light 809 01:10:22.630 –> 01:10:26.190 Kay: And connected things that I hadn’t even connected before in my mind. 810 01:10:26.570 –> 01:10:32.569 Kay: that I think I’m actually quite hopeful about, and I… what I… what’s nice about it is… 811 01:10:33.380 –> 01:10:40.159 Kay: The paradigm doesn’t require me to go deep into my onion to figure out what’s wrong with me. It just simply requires 812 01:10:40.640 –> 01:10:51.050 Kay: that I notice that, and this was the noticing that I didn’t see, which was the times that I usually blow up are when I’m underslept, overstressed. 813 01:10:51.450 –> 01:10:58.249 Kay: and not taking good care of myself. And my… and basically, I’ve allowed a combination of my environment and my body 814 01:10:58.820 –> 01:11:00.060 Kay: to be bad. 815 01:11:00.790 –> 01:11:06.579 Kay: And if I can do, you know, the approach being, I have triggers. 816 01:11:07.960 –> 01:11:16.979 Kay: if I can do something about the triggers, I should do it, and if I can’t do anything about those triggers, I should accept that that’s something I can’t do anything about, instead of trying to get 817 01:11:17.090 –> 01:11:18.629 Kay: You know, again, dig into the… 818 01:11:19.100 –> 01:11:20.490 Kay: To the layers of the onion. 819 01:11:20.930 –> 01:11:34.469 Kay: And this whole different concept of, like, whoa, you know, I could fix a couple things, I could get better sleep, that’s fixable. I could probably, you know, find some supplements to make myself feel a little better, I could probably eat better. 820 01:11:34.750 –> 01:11:37.109 Kay: And I could probably, you know. 821 01:11:37.950 –> 01:11:41.589 Kay: find ways to cool off so that I’m not stressed out. 822 01:11:44.350 –> 01:11:55.200 Kay: you know, one of her things is, like, don’t multitask. I have a terrible multi… I love multitasking, and yet it stresses me out. So these things are… I was just impressed by how, in this case. 823 01:11:56.150 –> 01:11:58.820 Kay: There’s times where it’s useful to use something like the work. 824 01:11:59.060 –> 01:12:05.090 Kay: When you’re really dealing with a question, you know, a thought that’s causing you distress. And then there’s just times where you have a habit. 825 01:12:05.610 –> 01:12:11.059 Kay: And maybe that’s not the right tool. Maybe that’s using the wrong tool for the job and the tool, and this job, to me. 826 01:12:11.550 –> 01:12:12.900 Kay: seems to be… 827 01:12:13.040 –> 01:12:18.310 Kay: I should just pay attention to how I’m living my day-to-day life. It’s a very practical thing to look at. 828 01:12:18.480 –> 01:12:29.899 Kay: There’s no, like, ahas, it’s no, oh my gosh, I’m one with everything, you know, it’s nothing like that, it’s just very, like, oh, yeah, I should get better sleep and go to bed earlier, which I’m not doing right now. But, in general, I should, and… 829 01:12:30.370 –> 01:12:37.359 Kay: I love that there’s a tool, just like carpentry, there’s usually a tool for every problem, you know? 830 01:12:37.360 –> 01:12:38.020 E: That’s fair. 831 01:12:38.350 –> 01:12:38.940 Kay: So… 832 01:12:40.150 –> 01:12:42.870 E: Well, speaking for… speaking of getting enough sleep. 833 01:12:42.870 –> 01:12:43.330 Kay: Yeah. 834 01:12:43.330 –> 01:12:44.289 E: So, let me guessing. 835 01:12:44.290 –> 01:12:45.000 Kay: Oh, thank you. 836 01:12:45.000 –> 01:12:49.800 E: different time zones here. Also, my wife just messaged me saying, like, hey, are you. 837 01:12:49.800 –> 01:12:50.489 Kay: I don’t need to. 838 01:12:50.680 –> 01:12:51.640 E: So… 839 01:12:53.020 –> 01:12:56.839 Kay: And you should follow that, request, I think, if you’re a wise… 840 01:12:56.840 –> 01:13:03.060 E: Yeah, so, you’re right, exactly, like, there’s the, like, oh, I could turn this into, like, a deep spiritual issue about men and women. 841 01:13:03.060 –> 01:13:04.050 Kay: Right. 842 01:13:04.050 –> 01:13:10.769 E: Nope, nope, it’s just drop what you’re doing, and then come over, and even if you’re not helping that much, you’re helping just by being. 843 01:13:10.770 –> 01:13:13.020 Kay: They’re helping. Exactly. 844 01:13:13.020 –> 01:13:14.689 E: I’m gonna go, I’m gonna go do that. 845 01:13:14.690 –> 01:13:16.939 Kay: Yeah, I love it. I will give you my hands on. 846 01:13:16.940 –> 01:13:28.870 E: But anyway, thank you, thank you so much just for connecting with me, and, you know, if there’s anyone that this podcast is for, it’s definitely me. So, I thank you, man. And then. 847 01:13:28.870 –> 01:13:30.179 Kay: Yeah, I know, and thank you. 848 01:13:30.550 –> 01:13:37.880 Kay: This has been fun, and it’s always great to, to, chat with you about this stuff. I think this is a good, again, good direction. 849 01:13:38.340 –> 01:13:49.110 Kay: You know, we riff on many interesting topics, so it’s not to say it’s limited to this, but this might be something that I think other people can relate to, and hopefully they do, so… 850 01:13:49.920 –> 01:13:51.680 Kay: Alright, alright, E… 851 01:13:51.680 –> 01:13:55.670 E: Venezuela. Is it the true Arepa? 852 01:13:55.930 –> 01:13:58.239 E: Homeland? We’ll find out. We’ll dig into it. 853 01:13:58.240 –> 01:13:59.430 Kay: We’ll find out next time. 854 01:13:59.670 –> 01:14:00.310 Kay: Awesome. 855 01:14:01.300 –> 01:14:04.130 Kay: Alright, sir, have a great, great week. Take care. Bye.