E, it's wonderful to be with you again.
How are you?
Look at, look at you.
I mean, you are a new man.
You're sitting in a beautiful grand apartment and in Southeast Asia.
That's right.
And you've got, uh.
Of the residents, and I feel like I'm talking to Andrew
Tate in Romania right now.
I, I wanna make sure that we bring up Andrew Tate in every episode.
So, um, you're like, you have your, your Romanian staff or whatever
your, your, um, you know, your workers, your worker bees around you.
You know, I think I saw some shadow pass behind you.
She's cleaning and making sure everything's polished.
What is it like living your new grand life?
Yes.
Well, so I, uh, just moved with my family to, uh, Jakarta, Indonesia.
Wow.
It's amazing.
Um, I'm, I'm gonna be, uh, working here for a little bit covering, um,
economic issues and so, uh, yeah.
I mean, it, it's nice to live in a place where the dollar stretches a lot more.
That's very nice.
How much can you buy?
Give us a few examples.
How much can you buy?
Like a meal for a coffee for Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, you know, it's, it's like with everything, right?
Because I've lived in a couple of different places, and if you eat
like locals eat, then you could be spending like $2 a day on food, right?
Wow.
Right?
Like, you go to, you eat out a food cart and you know, I, on the way
to, to where I live, I live in a big apartment building, uh, there's like
people selling on that side of the road.
Um, they're selling, uh, like meatballs, like Indonesian style
meatballs, and it, it's something like 30 cents for that meal.
Whoa.
Now I will spend a dollar 50 on the, uh, para, the, like, the deep
parasite, uh, me medication that I'll have to take if I actually eat there.
Right.
But, but it's like everything, right?
So if you've ever been right to like, uh, Thailand or even Latin America Yeah.
If you have a, a stomach conditioned to living in the United States, then yeah.
I mean, you can't really, can't really eat any food that might be a, like a vehicle
for bacteria that you're not used to.
Right.
And get you very sick.
Right.
True.
And so, and also like, kind of like.
Hygiene standards and stuff.
Right.
You know, things like, uh, uh, what, what is the Eli?
Stuff like that.
Oh, so you have to be very careful.
Right.
So in order to shop or eat at places that, um, I, that won't get me sick then.
Yeah.
I'm actually spending a, what is considered a lot of money locally.
Right.
So, you know, the.
The real sweet spot is finding a place in a developing country where you can
actually eat the food and not get sick.
And so, and, and.
That exists.
It totally exists.
Um, I used to eat, um, all the time in, in like Bangkok.
I used to eat, uh, out of carts and stuff and Sure.
Uh, for some strange reason I never got sick and I'd be spending maybe
like a dollar 50 on a meal there.
And it's a great meal here.
I haven't found that yet.
I'm gonna ease into it.
Uh Okay.
Just because I've never been here before and so I feel like if I
start to look for a cheap meal.
Uh, it might cost me more than I'm bargaining.
It could cost you a lot, but yeah.
So, you know, just, just for an example, right?
Yeah.
It could cost me a lot more than I imagined.
Although I would no longer have to take any weight loss drugs.
That'd be great.
Um, you know, if I survive it.
Do you know if they allow, I guess you'll find this out, hopefully not,
but do you know if they allow, um, free range of per of, um, antibiotics?
Like, I guess the reason I ask is one of the issues when
I lived in Thailand was that.
They didn't have any rules about antibiotics.
You could just go to the pres, to the pharmacy, ask for any
antibiotic you wanted, and they would happily give it to you.
They even recommend some.
Um, and the problem with that was that I, um, I would take these antibiotics
when I had stomach issues and then, um, they wouldn't work 'cause they
were already highly resistant to all the, all the antibiotics that
they were dishing out like candy.
Um, which I felt very frustrated by.
Because there's nothing worse in the world.
I, I will say that you're like on your flat, on your back and
you're praying to the heavens.
And then, you know, you know, my wife came in, she's like, Hey, the
pharmacist take said to take these.
They're the right ones.
And you take them and you feel better for about a day, and then
suddenly it starts to turn back and it's now worse than before.
You're just like, oh, oh, now what?
You know, what happens now?
So anyway, um, yeah, exactly.
I'm wondering, country, I find that countries that say, no, we're not gonna
just let you have as many antibiotics.
You have to go see a doctor.
The antibiotics work a little better.
Do you know what the situation there is?
Oh, it's interesting.
Uh, I ha I don't know.
Okay.
But you know.
Let's, let's check back in a month after my first, we can ask AI next time.
You know, silhouette, altering stomach disease.
Yeah.
Uh, I will say this though.
So, one thing, we have a, you know, I, uh, we have a, we have a baby at
home and I have a 6-year-old boy.
We've talked about it before.
You know, being here definitely.
'cause we can afford to have help.
So we have, and we're paying like above market rate for, for our
nanny, but we have a nanny who comes in and works eight hours a day.
And that is like a 400 bucks a month, which is on the amazing,
expensive side for that kind of help.
She has an excellent, very, uh, very legal contract.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that gives her, oh, $400 is probably quite a lot of money.
I, I wouldn't doubt it.
It's a ton of money and, uh mm-hmm.
A ton of benefits.
Uh, so, which I mean, I, I'm happy, uh, to provide 'cause I can.
Right.
Yeah.
So, and then, and we have, you know, a driver.
Who likewise, that's like 350 bucks a month.
Amazing.
So, I mean, you know, that gives you an idea of Yeah.
What expenses are and stuff like that.
Right, right.
So, uh, happy to have all the help we can get, especially 'cause
this is a country where they drive on the left side of the road.
Sure.
So I wasn't excited about driving.
Uh, mm-hmm.
And I bought, like this used, uh, SUV, uh, that we go around town with.
We're going shopping and stuff.
But yeah, it's, it's been great being here.
I mean, yeah.
Um, you know, we haven't been here for very long and already it, you know,
we're trying to get used to having help and then living in a nice place.
Yeah.
But we did not earlier, you know?
Yes.
Back when we lived in the space.
That's exciting.
Yeah.
We, our, our salary's average, so what's gonna happen is that as we talk.
My wife and I will start to say, what are we doing?
We need to go live in Jakarta with car, with, uh, with EI was
almost gonna get through this.
Peter Herman, without a pee Herman.
Pee Herman.
There you go.
Pee Herman.
Good.
Thank you for that.
Yes, good.
Good point.
Pee Herman.
I, we were all, so anyway, we're gonna want to come and live in Jakarta.
I have no doubt because, um.
It's, it's something we've already thought about.
We've already, the number of times we plan to leave, to go off to save money
and, and get like a nanny and stuff is we could just like, you know, if for
every dollar we, we would have a million bucks in there, um, we were literally
going to move to Playa de Carmen.
As of three months ago, somehow that's kind of stalled out.
But we have talked a lot about, um, Thailand again and some of these
other places where yeah, it's cheap.
It's good, it's fun.
Um, I would say with the food, by the way, I made the mistake when I was in Thailand.
Somehow my, I, you know what?
It wasn't just my intuition, it was of a vegetarian that I knew and she
had al like I, she would claim when I, whenever I get sick, she would be like,
well, the reason you're getting sick is because you're eating all that meat.
And I would listen to her and I'd be like, oh, maybe she's right.
And I would internalize it and then I'd be like, well, I've gotta go find some salad.
So I'd be running around town, finding places to have salad,
and then I'd keep getting sick.
Yeah.
And years later I realized, no, it's the opposite.
It's the reason you never got sick of those stalls is because they're
cooking the crap outta that meat in the, in a wok or whatever.
You know, there's not, you know, it's a salad.
That's, that's your danger.
By the way, I don't want to go on a tangent.
It's easy to beat up on vegans and vegetarian.
It was a vegan.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ugh.
Well, anyway, it's fine.
It's, it's fine.
It really is.
Be whatever you wanna be.
Yes.
I don't care.
However, it is interesting to me.
I noticed, and I mean I do this, like whatever you, whatever you're carefully
constructed identity is based on.
Yes.
Right?
Like, okay, you're a vegan, you're a strict evangelical Christian.
Yeah.
Or I don't know, a satanist, and then someone says, oh man, I keep getting sick.
And then the vegan's gonna be like, yeah, it's because you're eating meat
is poisonous and don't, you know, and there's all this like information,
misinformation, disinformation out there on any topic you like.
Right?
Yeah.
And I, you know, I've floated around the woowoo conscious community
for a little bit, so I'm aware of the insane dangers, oppressed seed
oils, uh, processed food and meat.
But also of, uh, grains, you know?
Yeah.
Because you see . You see?
Kay?
Thank you.
Uh, the agrarian revolution was only 40,000 years ago, so mm-hmm.
Anytime you eat a grain, it's not much time.
Anytime you eat a grain, it's like poison.
Yeah.
Also meat.
Meat is also poison.
Also milk.
Milk is poison.
Right.
We're the only mammal that drinks milk until it's adulthood.
Not true, by the way, but okay, fine.
It's all poison and it's such bullshit to me.
Whatever your thing is, that'll, that's what everyone
blames for, everything, right?
So it begins like you're sick 'cause you're eating meat.
Mm-hmm.
The Evangelical Christian will say, well, you're sick 'cause you
don't bring Jesus into your life.
And then the satanist will be like, you know, if you were just to
accept the warm embrace of Satan and hedonism, maybe you would all the time.
I don't know.
Right.
Like everyone's got their thing.
And, and by the way, God bless you.
Uh, I don't know where I heard this, but someone went, I, I
read or someone told me that.
You know, your religion and I consider being a vegan, a religion.
Your religion is kind of like, uh, your penis.
I'm really glad that you have one and that you're proud of it, but
just, you know, don't show it.
I don't want to see it.
Yeah, good point.
That's that's good.
And that's fine.
Although there are people who love penises and they'll be very interested in yours.
Exactly.
And those people, I think, should meet each other and be very happy together.
Yeah.
But yeah, so like, I don't know.
Yeah, it's because you didn't read enough L Ron Hubbard books, that's
why you got sick and violent, right?
Well, it was a, it was a distraction and unfortunately if I had thought on fir on
kind of what is it, first principles about what could be causing that besides meat, I
probably could have avoided more of that.
So anyway.
Um, now that said, you are under the clock because you have.
A An upcoming massage.
A massage, yeah.
Yeah, man.
And I was just thinking to myself, what kind of deadline is that?
I mean, you know, what kind of deadline is that?
You're living the life now you've got a massage coming up.
It's probably a four or $5 massage.
Full body.
That's it.
Yeah.
I mean, I started working in earnest next week.
I kind of got settled first.
So my family could be, could have everything they wanted, but then
once, once that happened, you know, okay, I made a little bit of
time for e, you know what I mean?
And I don't mean the drug, I mean myself, my yes.
Ridiculous.
Getting high off yourself.
That's it.
Which is, you know, kind of what vegans do.
So I kind of, yeah, maybe, maybe I should be a vegan.
I dunno.
I would be, I would lose weight and I'd, I'd probably be healthier.
Well, I think I just heard.
Lizzo state that she is now losing weight, that she, once she stopped being vegan.
So I'm not, I'm not always sure it works that way, but anyway.
Oh, really?
There must have been a lot of people who love that.
Right?
Because they're, you know, whatever I, every now and then
we'll get an out of town visitor and they'll say they're vegan.
And the first thing I say is, do you run into, you must run into people.
Who hate that.
And they're like, yes.
And I'm like, why do people have such a strong opinion about your diet?
If it's your diet and you're not sitting there, you know, judging people
for eating meat or yelling at 'em.
Yeah, who cares, right?
If you're vegan and, and we're gonna hang out and, and they say, go,
what restaurant are we gonna go to?
And they say, well, can we go to a place for the vegan option?
I mean, most restaurant, most restaurants have a vegan option.
And most vegans I know.
Are perfectly willing to sit down and have like, you know, a raw vegetable
plate with a little thing, a ranch because it's not about the meal, right?
It's about sharing stuff and people get really bent out.
People I know get bent out of shape if, uh, they have to
accommodate suddenly a vegan.
They just hate the idea.
And it's funny to me.
Yeah.
Well, it depends on the vegan.
I've, I've met a number of them and Oh, have man.
Well, some of them can be very strong minded.
In fact, I used to be a part, I used to be, uh, in a vegetarian, vegan
group in when I lived in Los Angeles.
And, um, ooh, some of those vegans.
Um, anyway, um, I'm glad about the massage.
I'm glad you're living the life.
I will not, I don't have a massage scheduled this week for myself or
next week or anytime, but, uh, I will.
Love to hear about that lifestyle.
I miss that lifestyle.
I miss, um, I kind of miss that wild culture of just, you know, telephone
poles and wires all over the place and just like the busyness of motorbikes
and all this crazy kind of hectic stuff.
I mean, I loved the energy when I lived in Thailand of that,
and, uh, I really miss it.
And I, and surprisingly, you know.
Some of the best coffee, some of the best food I ever had.
Uh, at the same time, you know, I'd loved just those kind of scenes and,
you know, I haven't been to Indonesia, but I've heard amazing things, so
hopefully you'll get to experience that.
Um, that said, I thought we would talk a little bit, we were talking last
week about, uh, existential fears of what it's like to support a family.
This is kind of becoming a theme for us a little bit and, uh.
Yeah.
Work.
You work in this economic mm-hmm.
Situ. Mm-hmm.
In the capitalist economy.
Right.
How do you define yourself as a person?
How important is work to you?
I don't mean this in an annoying, like master's degree hypothesis way, where
like a bunch of people whose school's getting paid either by their parents
or scholarship muse, on and on, but the abstract evils of the economy, right?
There is always an economy, whether you're mm-hmm.
Stalking bison and, and living off of gathered fruits, you know?
Right.
Like there is an economy.
Right.
So I'm not angry about it.
It's what, it's what there is.
And so you can either deal with it or bang your head up against the wall.
There are people who love banging their head against the wall.
Some people have changed the world by banging their head against the wall.
Yeah.
It's just not for me.
So, you know, how do you deal with it?
Right.
So you and I are squarely in the camp of, okay, this is what we got.
Um, let's not judge it.
Let's just participate and how do we deal emotionally, psychologically
with this idea that, yeah, I mean, what do you do for work?
And there are people Yeah.
Who would say, well, if you lived in a different society, you, you wouldn't,
it wouldn't be such a dire crisis.
Right.
Um, that's interesting.
Who are not worried about losing their job.
And most of them are my cousins in Europe, but that's not our situation.
Right.
And it's a trade off.
I've spent a lot of time there.
Our family there in Europe.
In Western Europe.
I think I've mentioned it with Spain, but, and it's, it's great.
I mean, it's fun to visit and I like the culture.
It's kind of a big part of, uh, who I am, but I wouldn't wanna live there.
I just really wouldn't.
And so to me, uh, how do, how do we deal with this, right?
Yeah.
And it's very much about who we are, our identity, and where we live in
this moment, being in the us, um, being men who are fathers and, and husbands.
We have a family.
Uh, our, I think both of our wives are very happy to contribute
to the money side of things.
Sure.
But they, uh, at least my wife really contributes on the internal house stuff.
Yeah.
And then I focus on the external stuff.
Uh, and so I kind of see it as my job to make sure that this family is taken care
of, you know, is economic external needs.
So what happens when that gets threatened?
We talked about it last time in my case.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I think you have a great.
I I more to add to that conversation, which I think is
a common, common concern, right?
I was taking a walk earlier today and, um, the feeling of money came up again.
'cause again, I'm an entrepreneur and I was mentioning to you
before we started recording that I definitely feel the ups and downs
of, of, um, income as it comes in.
Sometimes our business is very seasonal and so there's times where
I feel like everything's great.
And then there's other times in the year where I feel like I'm panicking.
And, uh, and money is not coming in and it's just slow.
And I don't know why there's often just these waves.
I dunno if you've, I used to work at a coffee shop and I would notice that.
There'd be these strange waves for hours at a time where nobody
would come in and then suddenly everybody's coming in all at once.
And so that's kind of how I've seen money and, and payments and transactions happen
in our business, is like, it's empty.
It's, it's, it's completely dead.
And then suddenly everything all at once.
And when you're in those drought at times, it's very, it can be
very intense and very scary.
So the past couple weeks has been kind of like that for us.
So I'm right in the middle of it.
And, uh, there's a lot of unknowns.
There's a lot of my mind thinking, oh, will this ever change?
Will ever turn around?
Will that, will there be enough?
And as I was walking tonight, I kind of, to what you just said a second ago, I was
thinking, how old must this bel must this thought be in human, in the human mind?
If you think about this concept of like a salary, this is a pretty
new concept for, for us humans.
Like how mm-hmm.
How far does that go?
Back a hundred years, 200 years.
Probably not more than a few hundred years, maybe, maybe 300 at most.
I don't know.
Depending on where you were there would often be.
And if you were a farmer, it really, you are at the mercy of so much of
so many things out of your control.
You're at the mercy of the, of the rain and you're at the mercy of the winds and
you're at the mercy of whether people will have the money to buy your crops.
And there's all these things that are.
Constantly, and this is just, if you're a, again, you're someone doing,
um, irrigation and all that stuff, and then you think about hunting, I
mean, that's a whole nother thing.
And you're think about livestock.
There's all these different, you know, there's all these different occupations
that never had much security, and only until the last 50 to seven, five
years, maybe a hundred years, do we now have this concept of like a steady
paycheck that's always coming in and always good and always, you know, just.
And, and I was, uh, thinking like, wow, this is like a thought that's thousands
of years old if you really think about it.
And what, what can I do about that?
If you, you know, if you think it's nothing new that might be helpful.
I was thinking, like, what's helpful for me about that concept is can I
get to a place where despite what's happening, despite the transactions,
whatever that are coming and going, I can begin to just relax.
And lean into the unknown, lean into the mystery, lean into
the, the fear a little bit.
Um, and kind of to that point, um, there is a, there, there seems to be,
um, an element where, um, well you, you always have a choice with this stuff.
Either you're gonna, either you're gonna freak out and continue to, to,
uh, upset yourself or you're going to just kind of, um, relax into it.
And, um.
I guess what I was, what I was realizing today is when I had that steady income,
this is what kind of occurred to me the last time I had a really steady job.
I thought to myself, wow, if only I had a steady job again, wouldn't that be nice?
Wouldn't I feel so much better?
Wouldn't I feel right now the desire I want to feel, which is just
peace and stability and calmness?
And then I went back to actually look at how I did feel.
When I had it and what I remember feeling was dissatisfaction.
Yeah.
And I just thought, isn't that interesting?
Like the, the promise is, oh, if I just had the X, Y, Z, then I could feel, then
I could relax, then I could be at peace.
But actually when I tracked it the whole time I had a job, I was dissatisfied.
Yes, I was, I felt secure to some extent, but I felt very like.
Uneasy and like, well, I'm not where I should be.
I need to be, yeah, I need to be higher.
I need to, I need to be promoted.
Why did that guy get promoted?
That's not fair.
And why is this guy always.
Getting liked by the boss and I didn't get that.
Like, and then, you know, and it's just all this, and here I
am at this age, I'm not where I, you know, I'm not as far as him.
And he's, I do remember there was a guy I used to work with and he was almost,
I think he was a year older than me, or younger than me, maybe older, but he was
like three levels higher and he just came in out of nowhere into my organization.
And people would often like compare us because we both have the same name
and we were both into kind of tech.
. People would always kind of compare you 'cause you're two young tech white
guys and that's basically an archetype
um, but he was.
He was, and I remember he had a nicer car than me.
And I remember instead of being at peace, by the way, which is what I could have
felt if I so chose and just enjoyed everything, I was very frustrated by him.
And I let him be my demon, my, my tyrant and ruin this peace and, um, years
and years of this, of, of nothing.
And I don't even know what happened to the guy, but I just
know that I decided to make him.
More important than my piece effectively.
And, uh, if I could do it again, you know, I would do it differently.
So that's just my thought is that you, you raised this interloper,
would you confront him in a moment of honesty in the elevator and hug
him and whisper into his ear gently?
It's okay.
We're a one.
We are one.
You and I are the same.
It's all gonna be okay.
He would, um, he might embrace me, but he, um.
Yeah, there he might've, he might've felt that way.
In fact, I also had, would've, what was that?
Could've broke down his tears.
He would've broken down.
We could've had a real moment.
We could've had a beautiful moment.
Uh, but you're too soft blank.
And I, but, um, you know, what I would say is I made that decision con
unconsciously, I will give myself that credit, but I made that decision to take
a peaceful situation and find a problem.
Yeah.
And then am I, and the question is, am I doing that?
Now I have an excuse that I need that stability to feel better, but
if I had that clearly that didn't take away the, uh, the anxiety.
So it's, is it a choice or is it, you know, and how much of a choice is it?
So what do you, what are your thoughts on, on some of that?
No, I mean, I, I obviously have felt the exact same thing.
I've always had that conflict of, you know.
If you really sit down and look around and you see everything that
you do have, then you can be very happy with the situation you're in.
And just so I don't, just so I'm not speaking in the abstract, I, I don't think
it's useful to talk about the abstracts.
Yeah.
Uh, most of the time.
So I'll just talk about how, how I have personally just examples, right?
Like, it happens even now.
I, I think about how dissatisfied I was when I was single.
And I had all this anxiety about Mm.
You know, am I, have I been with enough women?
Which is like a crazy thing to feel, but I think that's a thing that
men often get pushed into feeling.
Hmm.
Because it can, you know, sometimes your identity as a man can be defined by women.
How many women have you been with?
Right?
Mm-hmm.
And then that is a mark of the man, which is a really weird way to do it.
Sure.
But I, I used to feel that pressure.
Um, I think I. Yeah.
When I look at my life now, I'm just so, I really am so deeply satisfied.
I'm almost kind of surprised.
Mm, delight to be surprised.
Nice That after having spent so much time, not satisfied with very great conditions,
think things were always great.
Really, if I think about it, I was never really satisfied, and now
I just feel intense satisfaction.
At my life circumstances and that, you know, day to day I try to order on a food
app and the food doesn't come on time or as the, not the thing I ordered, right?
I might get upset, but overall, uh, my ability to be happy with what I have
is the, is the highest it's ever been.
Which is really weird 'cause it's not always been down.
Why do you think that is?
I think, I don't know.
I've, I've had the status quo disrupted so many times that just the, the stability.
Also, I've, I've often gotten things okay that I thought I wanted.
Oh yeah.
I was so satisfied.
I guess I just learned that you were so dissatisfied.
Yeah.
I've gotten things that I thought I wanted and what's an example of this?
Why not?
No one knows who you are.
It's like a dog.
It's like a dog that catches the car, right?
Yeah.
Well, I was a late bloomer.
I didn't really kind of, uh, have any sort of relationships
with women until I was like 21.
I kissed a my, a girl for the first time.
Yeah.
And I obviously, we immediately got married.
Of course.
And then did you do And then I got divorced.
'cause that, what a crazy thing that is.
How long were you married again?
In my late twenties.
Say that again.
How long were you married for?
I was married for two years.
We were together for quite longer than that.
Yeah.
And I got divorced and I was, you know, I was overweight.
I never thought I was very attractive.
You know, still combed my hair like a kid.
I let my mom buy me my clothes, embarrassing stuff, and I
thought I would die alone.
And I was like, 29.
It's like, okay, well you have plenty of time to, to go chase what you want.
And I thought, um, you know, I'll, I'll be euphemistic here For our
Christian listeners, uh, I thought, quote unquote, dating around a lot
would make me happy and make me feel like a real man, but it didn't.
And I gave that a go.
And then I thought, well, I need to be in a relationship.
And so I was in a relationship and it was not satisfying.
And then so I started dating again a lot.
Uh, and then that was not satisfying.
Mm-hmm.
And then that, I think that was it.
Right?
It's a, it's like this process, you know, I did, I recently
got married a few years ago.
I'm in my mid forties, and it was just the right age for me.
To actually have a family and a life and, and children and
to enjoy being around children.
And there are times where it's really hard, where it's not
fun, where it's not comfortable.
Uh, I wake up every night.
I never sleep more than an hour and a half, two hours in a row
because we have a newborn and.
Uh, she's adorable, but it's just like, I would like some more sleep.
Mm-hmm.
But I love it.
'cause that's, that's what there is.
You, you can't want to have a baby, for example, and also want to
sleep the whole night through you.
You could if you had a night nurse or night nanny.
Yeah.
But I don't want that.
I wanna be there for that kind of stuff.
And you can't be married and, and live with someone else without conflict.
You're human.
It happens.
I also happen to think that I cannot have passion without disagreement, and I want
a passionate relationship with my partner.
And so to me, everything that I want has all these other things around it
that are at times and uncomfortable or unwelcome, but it's all part of it.
So I, I'm reminded.
That, be careful of the things you wish for 'cause you might get it,
but also what do you really want?
So for me, I think about this all the time.
I wanna be married.
I love being married and I love my wife.
I love spending time with her and talking to her.
And there are times we're getting a ridiculous argument.
We actually had a slight argument about an hour and a half ago and,
but it, to me, it's, it's very clear.
This is what being married is.
This is what being with someone is.
Yeah.
You have the fights you make up, that's nice.
You have stability, calmness.
Then you disagree on something and then you work it out.
Meanwhile, we have this, you know, 6-year-old in our house
who watches everything we do and he copies how we fight, right?
He copies how we criticize each other.
So if you're gonna fight and criticize each other, do it really well so he
can learn how to do that really well, because that's what life is, right.
And I, you know, I think I mentioned before I went through this program
that has been accused of being a cult, and maybe it is, I don't
know, but it's a great cult.
It's called Landmark Education.
And they had this thing, uh, various forum for and classes.
And one of them, and I don't think this is violating the NDA at all, is one
of their things is they say, well, you know, your life is only as good as.
The problems you have.
So do you wanna have petty, boring kind of problems or do you have
big, fat, exciting problems?
What kind of problems?
Remind me of a, of a person we, we once both knew named, uh, I think I can say
. Can I say his name from College J?
Is it jj?
Is that enough?
Yes, yes.
Jj, is that, did we call him jj?
We didn't call him that.
No, but let's call him jj.
But he would say that to me.
He would say, I think he said that to you or me.
Well, JJ was a fanatic of landmark education.
He, no, no, no, no, no.
This is a different guy.
Ah, this is, this is even further back before jj.
It is.
Uh, he used to say, let's just put it this way.
If he were talking to you, he would say, E. You have good problems.
The problem you're describing to me right now that you think is a problem,
don't forget that you have good problems.
There are people that have bad problems and don't lose sight of the fact that you
are, you have this, you're lucky to have a problem, such as your girlfriend and
you are fighting or whatever like that.
Or, and anyway, I thought he was very wise.
Um, he was also part of our, uh, staff, let's just say.
Kind of a wise quiet guy.
Maybe I'll remember his name.
Uh, and I won't say it.
Oh, text me, text me his name.
Sure.
Uh, so anyway, but you know, well, anyway, I mean, all this is to say that there are,
there are days, there are days where I am.
I, uh, oh, yeah.
There are days where, oh, okay.
By the way, the person we're talking about hated his life.
So I'm not sure that's a great,
he was one of the most unsatisfied, repressed people I've ever met.
But, you know, from the mouth of babes, I guess, um, you know, for
me it's, I think, and this is not just like a men's issue, right?
This is like a people issue, humans.
You know, if you really think about it, if you zoom out way back and both
of us have kind of been exposed to kind of eastern philosophies that
can sometimes deal with this in a way that we find more palatable 'cause
we are rejecting our Christian base.
But all the, all the religions, I think most forms of spirituality deal with the
basic concepts and, and maybe they've arisen because of it, this basic concept
that to be a human, the human condition.
Because you are born and you are made conscious of the
fact that you'll die one day.
Right.
Do animals experience this?
I don't know.
Uh, we haven't asked them.
They haven't told us in a way that we can understand.
Yeah.
But we know that we are very conscious of the fact that we're gonna die one day.
Death is the high cost of living.
To borrow the title of a comic book.
Lady Death.
Huge bosoms.
Great comic book.
I know that.
Um, but yeah, to, to, to live is to one day die.
And it wouldn't be interesting if you didn't die.
'cause if you didn't know it was gonna end, the whole
thing would be kind of boring.
Have you ever played a video game?
I remember there's this one video game, uh, where we'd go to these airports.
My dad was in the military, and we'd go to these airports and
sometimes the USO would have like.
On games, sometimes there'd be an arcade.
And there was one in, in, I think it was in Germany.
We were stuck because the, uh, desert Storm had broken out and the airport and
all the flights had gotten commandeered.
And there was this really great airplane, world War II themed airplane video game.
I think it was called 1945 or something where you're just flying through the
air and it's like an overhead shot and you're like shooting at incoming enemy.
And we ran outta quarters.
My parents gave, used to give us two quarters for like a 12 hour
stop there and we'd be at this game.
But it got it, it broke one day because I think we ended up
being there for like two days.
It broke at the end of like the first day, and it was on all the time.
Um, for free.
You could play for free.
Oh, great.
But there were no enemy.
It's just the plane.
Oh, no.
You can make it go left.
You can make it bank.
Right.
You could go up.
Interesting.
You could go down, you could even shoot the little guns and missiles.
Right.
But there were never any enemy.
You're just flying over an infinitely scrolling landscape.
Boring.
And it was super boring.
Yeah.
And no one.
Someone would inevitably come up to it and start playing like, oh wow.
I's playing for free, but then get bored because there's nothing to do.
Yeah.
You can't die.
Right, right.
Good point.
And I think I, I literally just had this happen 'cause I'm, I, uh, have
been building, or I built a, um, kind of like an old retro game box.
Oh.
Using, using a, uh, uh, um, raspberry pipe, actually really fun.
But anyway, I downloaded Street Fighter two for my kids to,
to, to introduce it to them.
And I put it in training mode.
And my five-year-old, I gave her the controls and she's beating up the
other person and the other person's not fighting back 'cause it's training mode.
Right.
And after like literally 30 seconds, she was like, this is boring.
And I just thought, oh, but I mean, you're learning and, and it was just
so clear that it was like exactly what you said does it, you just
know from a deep place of wisdom.
Everyone knows it's just boring to not have any challenge.
And Yeah.
And, and I, and I think that's at that, that's at the core.
Of what it's like, um, for me in my life, I have noticed that I get, I get scared.
I got scared that I might lose my job.
Yeah.
I've been, I have been laid off before.
Yeah.
I'm scared of dying.
Um, I've been in situations where I thought I was gonna die,
and it was terrifying to me.
And then it's easy to forget.
Right.
You watch, you just, you know.
BINGE series on Netflix and sit down and you're comfortable and happy in your life.
It's not until you have some adversity that you're beginning to realize Yeah.
That you should be grateful for what you do have.
Right.
And I haven't even faced that much adversity.
I, I've had a couple of scares, but I've had a very comfortable life
and yet I have learned to be really grateful for the things I have.
And maybe it's because I know I, one day I may not have them.
So to me.
What, just about your situation, right?
Being an entrepreneur, not knowing if you're, if you'll be able to support
your family, and especially in this country where there's not really
much of a social safety net, right?
It, it can be, it can be scary, but I think life is supposed to be scary.
It's just like how scary and when.
There are times when we are more ready for it to be scary than
others, and there are times where.
You know, me personally, I was recently when I thought that I
might lose my job and my wife and I came up with a backup plan.
First of all, how great is it to be able to have a partner in your life that just
says, okay, what are we gonna do about it?
Let's do it.
Let's sit down.
Mm. And plan it out and doesn't panic and make it worse.
That's an amazing thing.
And when that happened, I was really grateful for her.
And I thought, wow, I picked a really great partner, that she's
practical and it's like, maybe, you know, she is not from the us She's
from a central American country.
And I thought maybe we just go back to your country and I find some job
doing X. Yeah, you can go back to work.
'cause that's, she was working before we met.
Cool.
And so, and we live, you know, maybe we live in our hometown.
Uh.
In the middle of nowhere and we just sell coffee beans.
I don't know sounds, but that was, that was amazing.
Exciting.
It's exciting, you know, and I, and I did get a little bit excited
when I thought I might lose my job.
Yeah.
It's really weird.
Hmm.
Interesting.
It, it is.
Um, it is something where you have to, to make that click, it has to
be like that switch that turns on because I think you can really.
Tell yourself a story, and you can use other people as proxy.
It's like, oh, x, y, z per, you know, let's say, you know, maybe
you know them, maybe you don't.
If I only had as much money as Elon Musk, I'd be so at peace right now, you know?
But would I be at peace?
No, of course.
Yeah.
One of most, does he look like he's at peace?
Does he look like a, he's like the least at peace person in the world.
And yet you could tell yourself, well, if only I was him and I
had a, and if only I was whoever.
Then I could feel whatever.
Um, now there's a quote I was just pulling up 'cause you were talking
about death and it just hit me that I had read this quote a couple days ago.
So Steve Jobs, I think he'd given this speech and he is like,
remember that you're going to die.
Remembering that you're going to die is the best way to, I know, to avoid the trap
of thinking you have something to lose.
You are already naked.
There is no reason not to follow your heart.
Um, no one wants to die.
Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there.
And yet, death is the destination we all share.
No one has ever escaped it, and that is how it should be because death is very
likely the single best invention of life.
It's life.
It's a life changing agent.
It clears out the old to make way for the new.
So anyway, I liked that.
Maybe I, you know, I'm not sure.
It is interesting, this idea of like following your heart.
Um, I'm, I've become a little more skeptical of that over the years,
but at the same time, you know, you and I are doing this podcast.
There's no good reason for it.
There's no, um.
You know, I don't think either of us are trying to get rich off of this podcast.
And I don't think, um, you know, the stats out there aren't great.
This is not, this is not 2009.
Um, this is a deeply morbid and useless thing, like life itself.
You're right.
That's right.
But, you know, I was thinking, I'm enjoying, life is a podcast.
Life is a podcast.
I'm enjoying doing it.
Maybe the reason I'm enjoying doing it is because.
It is a way to express something into the world, and I feel like I do need,
I've looked at, I've observed myself, and there's, there is a need for me.
I build software for a living.
Um, I do a lot, a lot of mechanical things.
And so for me to have this sort of non mechanical, non-practical
outlet to be able to express myself.
I realize that's important to me and that is part of the following of my heart.
It may not always make the most sense.
It may not always be the most practical, but it's something that
I feel I find myself doing a lot.
So, uh, anyway, uh, death.
You're right.
I mean, death is a great way of thinking about it and what a great frame,
uh, to bring into this conversation.
Yeah, and, and that's it, right?
Is there are people, you know, whatever your jam is, as long
as it's done like intentionally.
Then, you know, your project probably has this really great
amount of integrity to it.
In, in that it is like internally consistent.
It, it's when we, and I have done this, this is why I say we, it's when we
start daydreaming and, and sleepwalking.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and we have fooled ourselves into thinking something else.
Right?
Like, you know, I, I really wanna get promoted.
If we were discussing earlier, uh, a friend of yours.
Who might be completely asleep and sleepwalking through life y you get
handed expectations, you get handed morality, you get handed values.
What do you do with them?
Can you pick new ones?
Mm-hmm.
I have managed to do this at times and at times I've not managed to do this.
There are times where I feel inadequate.
Is it because of what society has taught me to feel?
Also like you, you're going to have values.
You're going to have expectations.
Yeah.
The question is where do you get them from and is it something that you're okay
with if all, as long as you know, you know, 'cause this is the thing, right?
I mean, we, without, we've talked about, we don't like the political
discourse that is prevalent.
Because what is prevalent is what is the most dramatic and interesting, which can
often be the most ridiculous or extreme.
I, if I, if I take this idea, I am somewhat of a liberal in some things
and not in other things, but I, I know people who they say, uh, you know,
they believe that all, all cultures are great and that you can't criticize
other cultures, cultural relativism.
It has a hard limit, right?
There are things I know are wrong and I don't need to be a Christian
or deeply religious to know that something is wrong, right?
And this is one of the things that kind of bothers me sometimes about
other liberal friends I have, is that they'll say, oh, well, you know, these
very limiting gender roles by you, uh, e saying that what you like about
your wife is how feminine she is.
That's, you know, that's misogynist.
And I've talked to my wife about this a thousand times.
Basically, you are gonna have values, you are gonna have norms.
And so my wife's gender norms for herself, she has an idea of what it is to be
feminine and what she wants from herself.
She's very aware that she gets cultural messaging all the time.
She has gotten okay with it.
Uh, I have received.
Cultural messages about what it is to be a man in my own gender
role, and I'm okay with it.
Uh, you know, we, we talk a lot about what the gender roles and expectations
in society do to us and how do we deal with them, but you would have to
deal with a gender roles at some time.
Like if, if you're a very liberal person who doesn't believe in gender roles
and nothing means anything when they say that gender's a social construct.
My next, my next comment is like.
Yeah, of course it is.
You know, there's a huge amount to what we experience in our
culture that is socially developed.
There's a lot of things that are based off of our biological truths.
Yeah.
Uh, and there's a lot of great work from neurobiological researchers.
Um, there's one at Stanford, David Polsky, he's very great.
He's, he has a lot of interesting stuff on how biology and
behavior are connected, right?
Mm-hmm.
And behavior is a big part of culture.
Uh oh.
I have a tiny thing floating behind me.
There you go.
I'm currently in this room, which is the only place there's a desk.
Uh, anyway, I'm in my son's room anyway, so to me it's like liberals act like you
can just float freely, universally, in some ether and never have to establish
any gender norms or expectations, and you can respect everyone else's.
Like they're all perfect, but that's just not the reality of how we live our lives.
I think there's such a thing as tolerance and respect for other
people's beliefs and values.
Absolutely.
But for me and my wife, we have our own gender rules that we're okay with.
My wife and I wouldn't walk across the street and then tell our
neighbor how they should have theirs.
That's what makes us liberal.
Right.
In my view.
But that's not how a lot of people define that liberalism.
Um, nowadays I'm so out of, I feel like I'm so out of, um, touch with that world.
I used to be deep in that world, you know, I used to work at a university
and, um, in my, and until, did you, I believe Well, no, you were, I met you at
a university, but anyway, that's right.
Yeah.
Um, we were in a circle in which these things were discussed constantly,
and then when I worked for the university, it became more of like a
leadership role and stuff like that.
It was just ad nam?
No, it was just constant.
Like I'd have to give workshops on, I'd have to sit there and
listen to these workshops.
Yeah.
I remember to say agreeing a lot, you know, not all the time, but I fair amount.
I remember thinking like, well that doesn't make any sense.
And, and, and I knew that if I said that it would be, it would be crucifixion.
It is the opposite of tolerance, but yes, of tolerance.
It was just like, look, I'm not gonna say that, but, um, it was, it, you know.
It was interesting that my whole life every day was listening to people
have a lot to say about these kind of topics and arguing about it and like
checking each other all the time.
Yeah.
Testing each other to see if they're real and authentic.
And I, I have to say I did a lot of, um, I would say that I was pretty good.
I was, I was fairly bought into it all without much question,
but there were things that I was skeptical about and I would shut.
The F up about those things.
I would say nothing.
And I knew that was important.
If I wanted to keep my job and my SAS was to say nothing, I had seen
what happened to people that did open their mouths in disagreement for
some things, and it was not pretty.
And I just was like, well, I'm not gonna, why waste my energy?
Um, and so, but I, now I'm not, I'm so out of touch with that world that when you
say people are kind of like questioning.
The gender roles of you and your wife.
I am like, who the hell are these people?
Are you, you know, maybe you need to move out of West Hollywood.
You know, maybe it's time to really, you know, get out of the neighborhood.
I don't know.
Where, where is Indonesian my friend?
I'll tell you one thing now.
It's like my wife dresses like a loose woman and she has tattoos.
Yeah, that's true.
Terrible.
So now we're, we're back on the side of wanting people to be tolerant again.
That's right.
I do remember when we were in Malaysia.
The first hour we got there to the hotel, it was lazily hot out.
It was a hot summer night.
We were gonna go to this bar or club, whatever, and my wife and I walked out of
the hotel and she was wearing a tank top kind of like looking thing with bare arms.
And we walked out and all these dudes were like blaring at us.
Half, you know, turned on half angrily and I, and she said, I
think I better go back and change.
I said, yeah, I think we better go back and ch you know, so we went
back and she put on, you know, more clothes and it was fine.
But yeah, you gotta be having pure thoughts.
How dare she that spot up.
Exactly.
You're the reason for my impurity.
Yeah.
I didn't wanna get attacked that I.
So I can see that you're now in a new world.
Yeah.
New culture and a new um, yeah, you know, world where you're gonna
have to, uh, get used to that.
And that's gonna be an adjustment I'm sure, but at the same time,
no one will question why you.
Um, are oppressing her with your, um, you know, wanting to be the man of the
house or whatever, whatever it is that you've been criticized for before.
Yeah, exactly.
Not anymore, man.
Just as long as I don't make her wear a burka.
We're all good, I guess.
Exactly, exactly.
Anyway, speaking of, uh, restrictive clothing, uh, I have to go.
Yes.
Take that off.
And, you know, and once again, I did this last week, and I really
like this, is that to prove that our podcast is just a conversation that
we'd be having anyway, probably.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I, I, when this ends, I'm just gonna walk away.
Um, there's, you know, oh.
Oh, I see.
The very first, the very first week I think we did that, we
ended the podcast and then we got kinda stayed on the line and we're
like, oh, I think that went well.
How are you doing?
Blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
But now, man, that was all the, that's right.
That was the, um, the fake stuff afterwards.
This is the, yeah, and they were listening.
Is the real, the authentic after that?
Like what do you get?
It gets a little awkward, like, oh yeah.
What, what are you gonna do today?
Yeah, so it's better to just end it here.
That said, since you, um, are saying that, um, do check out, this is,
the audience would like to know this too, that we are now live.
We have a, we have a website now, amazingly, oh.
Um, called, uh, don't Tell My Wife pod.com.
I believe we're gonna get a lot of, uh, people coming off
of the wrong Google search.
However you got here.
I hope you like it.
I, I'm, we inherited all four.
Any kind.
We inherited Kelly Madison's database, right?
Yeah, I hope so.
I hope we come, I hope we get people from all over walks of life.
Um, go to, go to the site.
Check it out.
You can subscribe on your Apple podcast now.
You can, we will soon have app, uh, Spotify subscription soon.
Um, and you can, uh, click to get to the YouTube.
We have now a YouTube feed that is live and it is pulling our
episodes into it automatically.
So now every time we publish, uh, on at Apple Podcasts, it will
automatically go on the YouTube channel.
So it's all set up sucked in, and so, uh, of getting sucked in.
I just wanna say, just for anyone who's listening, who's not.
You or I or anyone in our immediate family who might be listening to us,
which once again, I squarely believe is all the people listening to it.
But I'm assuming if there is anyone listening to it who does not know
us personally, that it is part of some bizarre sex fetish in which you
pretend you are eavesdropping on two friends, talking to each other, huh?
While you, uh, sexually gratify yourself, uh, in a corner somewhere.
I'm assuming that is, you gotta make those assumptions.
I'm assuming that is where I would say assume the best.
Right.
So that's what you're doing.
You're assuming the best.
I think it'll expand.
I think it will expand.
Sure.
But let's just say that's who, that's who's listening right now.
I haven't told anyone besides my wife, including my wife, actually, as
the, as I, the name of the podcast.
I haven't even told my wife.
Except for once.
So no one knows about this on my side.
Maybe all of your family is listening.
Is it possible that all your large family is like, my wife knows about this.
Okay.
Alright.
Which, which is also the amount of people I thought would give a shit.
Exactly.
So surprisingly the perverts.
So to the perverts out there perverting, I just wanna say that we welcome you.
We are not gonna judge why you are listening to this, and I apologize.
For mentioning you.
'cause I understand that whatever your fetish is about this is that we do
not address the fact that you're here.
So I apologize and we will continue to ignore you and not refer to
you as right podcast episodes.
That way you can continue to pleasure yourself secretly.
Now, if you are one of these people with a fetish listening, please,
please click the like button.
On YouTube and if you can, uh, leave a rating, leave a, leave a
review for us on Apple Podcast.
Spotify, I don't think Spotify has a rating system, but leave a review.
Leave a comment.
If you're watching this on YouTube, pull up your pants, take off the gag.
You don't have to take gag off the gag to, to type anything.
I take that back, sorry.
You can use AI now, just, just, uh, dictate it.
Um, if you are suffocating yourself, do pull a plastic bag off your head and
yeah, pull the, or the, the curtain.
What's the little thing they use to tie the curtains at hotels?
Get that out from around your neck and go ahead and leave a good review.
This is like a good PPDA public service.
PSA, uh, alright, well thank you for that.
Uh, sure.
You saved a couple lives there.
Remember, there's also a contact form, so if you'd like to be,
if you'd like to be on the show.
Maybe you have an interesting story.
You know, just reach out to us.
We're kind of so small right now.
We'll interview anyone.
Camera's off obviously, because Exactly.
You won't see us.
You won't know us.
We know who's listening.
Exactly.
So anyway, uh, great.
Well this has been, this has been fun.
Let's do it again.
Um, yeah, I find these conversations interesting.
I hope you all do too.
And, uh, until next time, have a, have a wonderful massage.
Uh, e. Thanks, man.
Take care.
Kay.
All right.
How, what do they say to say goodbye in, in Indonesia?
What do they say?
What's the way?
Uh,
s All right.
Great.