E: I don't know, I don't know if, this conversation we're having is good or not, but it definitely belongs in our podcast.
kay: It does. We waited too long. We were talking offline too long.
kay: What is a steel man?
E: But it's not… it's not a… it's not a reference to Superman. I… from the… I've never heard this word before, you just said it.
kay: Really? Oh my gosh. It's every single podcast I listen to today.
E: I assume that it's the opposite of a straw man, right?
kay: Yeah, but I didn't even think about that, so you're actually bringing me… you're making it more clear for me where it came from. Yeah, Steelman is…
E: Drawman.
kay: True.
kay: Go ahead.
E: Well, it's the…
E: Someone… Someone puts up a counterargument to the thing they want to prove right, so they put up a counterargument that is very weak on purpose.
kay: Mmm.
E: And so.
kay: Oh, right.
E: destroyed counterargument. So, what is this deal, man, then?
kay: Well, that would be the opposite. You are… you do your best… Effort.
kay: To put up the opposite argument of what you believe.
kay: So, if I believe… if I believe in the case we were talking about, that H-1B visas
kay: Getting, you know, putting a $100,000 fee on that is a bad idea.
kay: It's gonna negatively affect our, you know,
kay: Brain, you know, it could cause brain drain, it could cause lots of other problems to the economy.
kay: to Steelman, the opposite.
kay: you know, to steal… if I were to steal man, I would have to argue in favor of the $100,000 fee.
kay: With a… with an intention to…
kay: You know, do my best to argue against myself.
E: Now, is that in a sincere effort to find out if your argument is actually weak, or to find out if you're on the right track?
kay: Supposedly, but I've never heard anyone do it very sincerely. I think they kind of do a week… I think they do more of a straw man…
kay: Dressed as a steel man arguing.
kay: Because they don't really want to get let go of their argument.
E: So, a person making an argument, for example, they say, Yeah, tariffs. Tariffs… on imported goods.
E: will make us richer as a country. And then you say, okay, well, a strawman argument against that is, well.
E: No, they won't, because… people…
E: it won't because the consumers here willing to pay more money for the goods, and you say, well, but goods, look at the last 6 months, right? Ever since Independence Day, April 2nd, Tariff Day.
E: Prices have actually not gone up very much.
E: So, obviously, it is making us richer, and people aren't paying money, so… and then, you know, if you didn't believe.
E: in the tariffs, you'd say, well, hold on, that's a strawman argument. There are… it's very complicated. First of all, there have been months
E: of stored… Oh, I think I'm talking to myself, I believe Kay has disappeared. Oh, another recording has disappeared.
IDC: Hey there.
IDC: Can you hear me alright?
E: Hold on. I don't know what happened, man. I don't know if it's my internet connection or yours.
IDC: It was mine.
E: Oh!
IDC: And it's still off. I'm… now I'm using mobile, because somehow my…
IDC: Our Airbnb's, internet just died.
IDC: So hopefully, maybe I'll check it in a few minutes.
IDC: So anyway, sir, yes, so the Steel Man…
IDC: I think you… you got it right.
IDC: Anyway, if…
E: Wait, hold on.
IDC: I don't know how we even got onto the Steel Man.
E: Can I… can I jump now? See, Mike, while all this was happening, my, my computer finally came back to life.
E: Although, you know what? Forget it, because I… I…
E: It's low, it's low on battery and you can't find it.
IDC: We should probably start over, this is a pretty rough, start. Hold on. Let me, stop the recording, we'll… we'll… we'll do it.
E: Yeah, the turnover.
IDC: one.