This episode dives into the concept of the “Steel Man” argument, exploring its definition as the opposite of a “Straw Man” argument. The hosts discuss how a Steel Man involves earnestly presenting the strongest version of an opposing viewpoint to better understand or challenge it. They also touch upon the practical application of this technique, particularly in discussions about economic policies like H-1B visa fees. The conversation is punctuated by humorous technical difficulties, including internet outages and disappearing recordings, adding a layer of unscripted chaos to the intellectual debate.
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Transcript WEBVTT
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E: I don’t know, I don’t know if, this conversation we’re having is good or not, but it definitely belongs in our podcast.
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kay: It does. We waited too long. We were talking offline too long.
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kay: What is a steel man?
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E: But it’s not… it’s not a… it’s not a reference to Superman. I… from the… I’ve never heard this word before, you just said it.
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kay: Really? Oh my gosh. It’s every single podcast I listen to today.
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E: I assume that it’s the opposite of a straw man, right?
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kay: Yeah, but I didn’t even think about that, so you’re actually bringing me… you’re making it more clear for me where it came from. Yeah, Steelman is…
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E: Drawman.
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kay: True.
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kay: Go ahead.
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E: Well, it’s the…
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E: Someone… Someone puts up a counterargument to the thing they want to prove right, so they put up a counterargument that is very weak on purpose.
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kay: Mmm.
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E: And so.
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kay: Oh, right.
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E: destroyed counterargument. So, what is this deal, man, then?
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kay: Well, that would be the opposite. You are… you do your best… Effort.
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kay: To put up the opposite argument of what you believe.
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kay: So, if I believe… if I believe in the case we were talking about, that H-1B visas
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kay: Getting, you know, putting a $100,000 fee on that is a bad idea.
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kay: It’s gonna negatively affect our, you know,
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kay: Brain, you know, it could cause brain drain, it could cause lots of other problems to the economy.
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kay: to Steelman, the opposite.
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kay: you know, to steal… if I were to steal man, I would have to argue in favor of the $100,000 fee.
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kay: With a… with an intention to…
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kay: You know, do my best to argue against myself.
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E: Now, is that in a sincere effort to find out if your argument is actually weak, or to find out if you’re on the right track?
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kay: Supposedly, but I’ve never heard anyone do it very sincerely. I think they kind of do a week… I think they do more of a straw man…
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kay: Dressed as a steel man arguing.
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kay: Because they don’t really want to get let go of their argument.
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E: So, a person making an argument, for example, they say, Yeah, tariffs. Tariffs… on imported goods.
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E: will make us richer as a country. And then you say, okay, well, a strawman argument against that is, well.
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E: No, they won’t, because… people…
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E: it won’t because the consumers here willing to pay more money for the goods, and you say, well, but goods, look at the last 6 months, right? Ever since Independence Day, April 2nd, Tariff Day.
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E: Prices have actually not gone up very much.
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E: So, obviously, it is making us richer, and people aren’t paying money, so… and then, you know, if you didn’t believe.
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E: in the tariffs, you’d say, well, hold on, that’s a strawman argument. There are… it’s very complicated. First of all, there have been months
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E: of stored… Oh, I think I’m talking to myself, I believe Kay has disappeared. Oh, another recording has disappeared.
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IDC: Hey there.
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IDC: Can you hear me alright?
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E: Hold on. I don’t know what happened, man. I don’t know if it’s my internet connection or yours.
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IDC: It was mine.
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E: Oh!
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IDC: And it’s still off. I’m… now I’m using mobile, because somehow my…
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IDC: Our Airbnb’s, internet just died.
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IDC: So hopefully, maybe I’ll check it in a few minutes.
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IDC: So anyway, sir, yes, so the Steel Man…
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IDC: I think you… you got it right.
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IDC: Anyway, if…
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E: Wait, hold on.
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IDC: I don’t know how we even got onto the Steel Man.
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E: Can I… can I jump now? See, Mike, while all this was happening, my, my computer finally came back to life.
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E: Although, you know what? Forget it, because I… I…
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E: It’s low, it’s low on battery and you can’t find it.
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IDC: We should probably start over, this is a pretty rough, start. Hold on. Let me, stop the recording, we’ll… we’ll… we’ll do it.
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E: Yeah, the turnover.
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IDC: one.
